new definition of PM wheel

[nicbordeaux]

Let's face, if a wheel is truly PM, it will autostart. The imbalance will be permanent. Or the driving force always present and acting.

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi,

What if it has pistons that need priming or a centrifugal element?

Regards Trevor (Lynn) Whatford

Edit PM or Out of Balance in weight or force?

[Fletcher]

Yes, Bessler's first wheels were reportedly always producing torque, in any position, ready to spontaneously start revolving - it has been speculated that he used OOB systems & tied them off in favourable starting positions however.

His two directional wheels needed a push start in either direction, so there was a dynamic element involved i.e. needed motion to produce the PM effect - I would say that was inherent in the one way wheels also but disguised by the OOB principle.

[FunWithGravity2]

100% agreement with Fletcher ,

Dave

[greendoor]

Let's face, if a wheel is truly PM, it will autostart. The imbalance will be permanent. Or the driving force always present and acting.

No.

It depends on the operating principle and what exactly is being multiplied. If velocity or any form of kinetic motion (KE, Momentum, CF, whatever) is being multiplied, then a wheel could never self start. Zero x infinity still eqals zero.

I agree that Besslers first wheels were always OOB, and had to be restrained. Possibly, his bi-directional wheels were simply two wheels back to back, so they self-restrained themselves, and required a push to get past that lock-up state. (I,m guessing that once revolving backwards, the non-functioning wheel simply became useful flywheel mass - but that's pure speculation on my part).

[jim_mich]

I've talked about latency; the need for the weights to move earlier rather than later.
Suppose you have a wheel where the Cog of the weights always shift/move/slide from one side of the wheel to the other side. I've used the analogy of a ball in a tube. When one end of the tube rises just a tiny bit higher than the other end the ball quickly rolls from the higher end to the lower end. This is simple an analogy as to what I mean by latency. The ball move too late be able to assist rotating the wheel.

Now suppose that we have a mechanism in place of the ball. When the wheel is rotated very slowly then gravity causes weights to move and the CoG of the mechanism slides to the opposite side of the wheel. But this mechanism is super special. When the wheel is rotating then CF of the weights counter the force of gravity causing the weights to start moving earlier. Now instead of the weights moving too late and causing back torque on the wheel they move too early causing forward torque on the wheel. So the wheel become self rotating, because of a mixture of CF and gravity.

If you bring the wheel to a stop then inertial momentum causes the weights to all shift forward. And the wheel is left primed and ready to start turning as soon as it is released.

Such a wheel that seemingly starts by itself would have a balanced position if slowly rotated in reverse until it became balanced. Thus Bessler always locked it in the OOB position.

Bessler warned people about NOT turning his early wheels in reverse. Also there is one witnessed incident (Christmas holidays of 1716, thus the 2nd one way wheel) where his wheel supposedly stopped turning. Bessler mumbled something about 'something must have rubbed'. Then he gave it a push and it started turning again. This was reported by Wagner in 1716.

Most likely someone turned it backward to its point of rest while Bessler was distracted.

[ovyyus]

Bessler warned people about NOT turning his early wheels in reverse...

Jim, what is your reference for the above statement? Bessler's only stipulation was that tests must not involve turning the wheel faster than the speed it was designed to operate. I don't recall anything about reverse rotation not being allowed.

[jim_mich]

That came from memory, I think it may have been posted here 5 or 6 years ago? But maybe I'm wrong, since I cannot find any references by searching. Maybe I mixed up the over-speeding with turning in reverse? I cannot even find references to over-speeding.

[ovyyus]

Yes Jim, I think you got it wrong in this instance. That won't stop some from believing it :D

[path_finder]

Dear Jim_Mich,

Now suppose that we have a mechanism in place of the ball

the brachistochrone?

[nicbordeaux]

EDIT

[Michael]

Bessler warned people about NOT turning his early wheels in reverse. Also there is one witnessed incident (Christmas holidays of 1716, thus the 2nd one way wheel) where his wheel supposedly stopped turning. Bessler mumbled something about 'something must have rubbed'. Then he gave it a push and it started turning again. This was reported by Wagner in 1716.

The whole discussion, which was talked about at various times in the past was on the over speeding of the wheel. But where that idea originated from, what is behind its basis I don't know. Could be just another "loose" fact having no substantiality.
There's also the quote by Wagner. If Bessler is to be believed then none of Wagners words count for anything, being Wagner was heading a hate-smear campain to either force Bessler to reveal how his wheel worked or destroy him. I'm pretty sure I read Bessler refuting that statement by Wagner but I'll have to search around for it. Remember Wagner's statement that there was a hole in the wheel by which Bessler poked around in to mend anything that might have gone wrong inside the machine? It was talked about in community buzz a few months back, and I made a joke about it. It has also been discussed at various other times. This is what Bessler had to say about that.

What's more, I'm alleged to be an accomplished swindler who
won't engage in serious conversation. I'm supposed to have
broken a ‘promise' to let my machine be observed for a couple of
weeks on end, and I called into question established mechanical
principles. My only desire and intention was to deceive the world,
for never did I reveal to anyone my device's principles, (for
evidently according to my writings I didn't know them myself.) But
he (Wagner) knew all the ins and outs himself. If something went
wrong with my machine, I'd mend it by poking around through a
tiny hole, to prevent anyone seeing inside.
May I be punished if I'm lying - but every word of all this is an outand-
out lie

.

[jim_mich]

Deja Vu ??

Those that refuse to learn from their mistakes are destined to repeat them.

Jan 22, 2010
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 8923#68923

Jun 2, 2008
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 9558#49558

[bluesgtr44]

I'll look for it, but somewhere he alludes to the "raising and lowering" of loads could be done with his device. I imagined a governing affect as far as lowering goes....I could be wrong.


Steve

[jim_mich]

If we assume that the wheel contained oscillating weights, then trying to force them to move faster than their natural rhythm would cause a resistance, much like a clock escapement.