Ben, Art : why would I consider that negative in any way ? Everybody is free to choose his own God/religion/church/set of beliefs. As long as he doesn't go around slaying other people who don't adhere strictly to his set of beliefs.
I'm not a theologian (is that the word ?) but I seem to recall that God (in the Christian sense) can choose whoever he wants, irrespective of his beliefs.
But the main thing is "God helps those who help themselves" . So waiting for a revelation isn't the right way to go about it. Irrespective of whether you have a God or not.
EDIT : what did I do or say this time that some louse has removed my third greenie ? ;-)
Bessler's wheel and God
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nicbordeaux
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re: Bessler's wheel and God
Last edited by nicbordeaux on Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
re: Bessler's wheel and God
I really wasn't knocking Nick, or should I say Nick knocking. Ha-ha. I was raised by a Baptist minister, who was considered to be brilliant by most of his peers. His name is Myron Madden (Google it if you like). I was repeating the philosophy I grew up hearing, because I think it makes sense (if you believe in that stuff. Apparently Bessler did.)
And I ain't touched them dots!
Ben
And I ain't touched them dots!
Ben
re: Bessler's wheel and God
The way I see it, Bessler was a man with an almost impossible mission and keeping certain kinds of people away from any real knowledge of PM was just as important to that mission as demonstrating that PM was indeed real and preserving the information about it for those he expected to be worthy of it, if not in his own time, then some day in the future.
Now there are two types that fit into that group that Bessler wanted to thwart at any and all costs, no matter how long it might take for the others he did want to know to finally understand and pay their proper "dues", so to speak, in order to properly understand the information he'd left them.
First there were those that were really only interested in their own personal gain and merely saw PM as another potential way to achieve that, (which is the only reason they had any interested in it at all); and secondly there were the people that Bessler really feared and despised the most. The ones who wanted to know the information simply so that they could bury or suppress it and keep everyone else in the dark about the truth of its existence... permanently.
Personally, I think our story of Bessler has been quite deliberately distorted and misconstrued concerning that last group and that has been due to some very carefully orchestrated foot-work on their part that continues even to this day.
Frankly I think that those very people did want and intended to buy Bessler's wheel and the sercet to it for 20,000 pounds but only on the proviso that Bessler stay silent and retire into obscurity as that wealth would easily permit him to do and so that they could get on with just making the entire subject just quickly and quietly dissappear.
So I don't for one moment think that Gravensade, who believed in Bessler and had been friendly towards him and instrumental in verifying that the wheel was genuine all along, was ever trying to take another peek when Bessler flew into a rage and took an axe to the wheel in that incident. I think he simply tipped Besler off to what Newton and his powerful allies and backers in the Royal Society and elsewhere actually wanted.
As hefty a sum as that was, it wasn't enough to buy-off Bessler's honor and integrity, nor was it what he had envisioned and expected from them concerning the wheel's fate and future. Naturally he would have been insensed and outraged and done precisely what he did.
Along with that, of course would have come Bessler's sudden and dismaying realization that he now had some very powerful and unscupulous enemies and that even if he had accepted their offer that they might very well have done away with him to protect what they planned, once the wheel and all the essential information regarding it was safely in their hands.
Now it would have been only too easy to claim that the wheel was unfortnately only a clever fake and that PM was as impossible as Newton had maintained, and of course no one would ever be the wiser or doubt that if Bessler, being the only other person who could genuinely prove otherwise, wasn't around to dispute it.
Now this particular speculation, on my part, would put an entirely different spin on the subsequent events, (as well as Bessler's attitude and behavior). A spin that makes considerably more sense and is actually far more in keeping with what we do know about him from the more ordinary people that steadfastly vouched for his reputation and helped keep his tale alive. It would also help to explain the purpose and nature of Bessler's unusual hints and clues as well as the form his writings took.
Now these adversaries of Bessler's could have done away with him or arranged some convenient "accident" for him were it not for the fact that they themselves would never know his secret, nor would they have any idea of how to prevent anyone else from finding it out just the same as Bessler himself had.
As much as they would have liked to have stopped him from publishing they would also have been just as eager to lay their hands on his books to know just what was in them as anyone else. Obviously Bessler would have been well aware of that even as he was counting on it too.
Now I have a number of legitimate reasons for suspecting this that have come directly from my studies of Liebniz and his staunch opposition to Newton and all things Newtonian.
I have also come to appreciate just how really formidable Liebniz' intellect and genius was by comparison. Some of the anecdotal information that supports my speculation on this as well as certain other aspects of Bessler's tale is well worth the read and can found here...
http://american_almanac.tripod.com/papin.htm
Now there are two types that fit into that group that Bessler wanted to thwart at any and all costs, no matter how long it might take for the others he did want to know to finally understand and pay their proper "dues", so to speak, in order to properly understand the information he'd left them.
First there were those that were really only interested in their own personal gain and merely saw PM as another potential way to achieve that, (which is the only reason they had any interested in it at all); and secondly there were the people that Bessler really feared and despised the most. The ones who wanted to know the information simply so that they could bury or suppress it and keep everyone else in the dark about the truth of its existence... permanently.
Personally, I think our story of Bessler has been quite deliberately distorted and misconstrued concerning that last group and that has been due to some very carefully orchestrated foot-work on their part that continues even to this day.
Frankly I think that those very people did want and intended to buy Bessler's wheel and the sercet to it for 20,000 pounds but only on the proviso that Bessler stay silent and retire into obscurity as that wealth would easily permit him to do and so that they could get on with just making the entire subject just quickly and quietly dissappear.
So I don't for one moment think that Gravensade, who believed in Bessler and had been friendly towards him and instrumental in verifying that the wheel was genuine all along, was ever trying to take another peek when Bessler flew into a rage and took an axe to the wheel in that incident. I think he simply tipped Besler off to what Newton and his powerful allies and backers in the Royal Society and elsewhere actually wanted.
As hefty a sum as that was, it wasn't enough to buy-off Bessler's honor and integrity, nor was it what he had envisioned and expected from them concerning the wheel's fate and future. Naturally he would have been insensed and outraged and done precisely what he did.
Along with that, of course would have come Bessler's sudden and dismaying realization that he now had some very powerful and unscupulous enemies and that even if he had accepted their offer that they might very well have done away with him to protect what they planned, once the wheel and all the essential information regarding it was safely in their hands.
Now it would have been only too easy to claim that the wheel was unfortnately only a clever fake and that PM was as impossible as Newton had maintained, and of course no one would ever be the wiser or doubt that if Bessler, being the only other person who could genuinely prove otherwise, wasn't around to dispute it.
Now this particular speculation, on my part, would put an entirely different spin on the subsequent events, (as well as Bessler's attitude and behavior). A spin that makes considerably more sense and is actually far more in keeping with what we do know about him from the more ordinary people that steadfastly vouched for his reputation and helped keep his tale alive. It would also help to explain the purpose and nature of Bessler's unusual hints and clues as well as the form his writings took.
Now these adversaries of Bessler's could have done away with him or arranged some convenient "accident" for him were it not for the fact that they themselves would never know his secret, nor would they have any idea of how to prevent anyone else from finding it out just the same as Bessler himself had.
As much as they would have liked to have stopped him from publishing they would also have been just as eager to lay their hands on his books to know just what was in them as anyone else. Obviously Bessler would have been well aware of that even as he was counting on it too.
Now I have a number of legitimate reasons for suspecting this that have come directly from my studies of Liebniz and his staunch opposition to Newton and all things Newtonian.
I have also come to appreciate just how really formidable Liebniz' intellect and genius was by comparison. Some of the anecdotal information that supports my speculation on this as well as certain other aspects of Bessler's tale is well worth the read and can found here...
http://american_almanac.tripod.com/papin.htm
Fondest Regards from the Fox
re: Bessler's wheel and God
I think Bessler set himself up for a fall, a fall from grace & from heaven, based on his beliefs.
He freely admitted to an epiphany from god & lay thanks & gratitude at his feet - he saw it as his purpose to then build a PM wheel partly as homage & with deference to his god - but, he succumbed to the devils temptations - whilst he tried to remain pious & humble he was a mere man after all - he wanted money as just reward for endeavors - but that caused a conflict within because he knew that he had received the gift freely yet he was going to line his pockets - he justified this mismatch of values by consoling himself that part of those funds would be used to build a school of teaching & engineering & that must be in part to promote god's purpose.
But, he could not 'do a deal' that got him the funds he thought he was due - this caused further internal conflict - he was holding out for mere cash when surely god had given him the idea to disseminate to the world & it was his ultimate duty to do so, regardless if he collected worldly baubles along the way - he held out & never resolved this conflict & never actioned an 'escape plan' - had he released the information before his death in a cogant manner then he would have been pure of heart & mind to enter his heaven with a clear conscience - so then, when god asked 'how did it go ?' - he could have said it took a little longer than I thought but we got there in the end.
Now the devil's got him stoking the furnace.
Moral : be careful what you believe.
He freely admitted to an epiphany from god & lay thanks & gratitude at his feet - he saw it as his purpose to then build a PM wheel partly as homage & with deference to his god - but, he succumbed to the devils temptations - whilst he tried to remain pious & humble he was a mere man after all - he wanted money as just reward for endeavors - but that caused a conflict within because he knew that he had received the gift freely yet he was going to line his pockets - he justified this mismatch of values by consoling himself that part of those funds would be used to build a school of teaching & engineering & that must be in part to promote god's purpose.
But, he could not 'do a deal' that got him the funds he thought he was due - this caused further internal conflict - he was holding out for mere cash when surely god had given him the idea to disseminate to the world & it was his ultimate duty to do so, regardless if he collected worldly baubles along the way - he held out & never resolved this conflict & never actioned an 'escape plan' - had he released the information before his death in a cogant manner then he would have been pure of heart & mind to enter his heaven with a clear conscience - so then, when god asked 'how did it go ?' - he could have said it took a little longer than I thought but we got there in the end.
Now the devil's got him stoking the furnace.
Moral : be careful what you believe.
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docfeelsgood
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re: Bessler's wheel and God
Fox ;
interesting post . quite some time ago i did some research on Papin . he ran the boiler at 1200 psi . a horrendous explosion injuring no one destroyed everything except the walls of the pump house . he fell in disfavor with Karl . went to england but his wife stayed in Kassel . i maintain he eventually made his way back to Kassel . and died approx. two years after Johanns arrival there . other Yarns have surfaced stating this also . reseachers are trying to find hard evidence to confirm this . i for one think its 100% truth based on a couple yarns i was told .
interesting post . quite some time ago i did some research on Papin . he ran the boiler at 1200 psi . a horrendous explosion injuring no one destroyed everything except the walls of the pump house . he fell in disfavor with Karl . went to england but his wife stayed in Kassel . i maintain he eventually made his way back to Kassel . and died approx. two years after Johanns arrival there . other Yarns have surfaced stating this also . reseachers are trying to find hard evidence to confirm this . i for one think its 100% truth based on a couple yarns i was told .
Re: re: Bessler's wheel and God
To a point this is true, but God also says that he created the wicked for his own purposes. Judas Iscariot was clearly chosen for his role. In certain key biblical events he made it clear that he influenced the decisions of kings. Obviously this took the choice away from the king, and the king became a tool for achieving God's will. God says that the powers that be, and the boundrys of countries etc are determined by him.Ben wrote:When man ate from the tree of knowledge and lost the Garden, God quit choosing. He gave us the choice. What makes the great men of the Bible great is not that they were chosen by God, but that they chose God.
Bible prophesies that came true very literally puts an interesting perspective on our limited power of choice (i'm talking to those who understand about these things - don't bother arguing your point if you are an unbeliever, because undoubtedly you haven't done the research and have no clue about what i'm talking abou).
I believe God sets boundries, and still gives us a lot of choice within those boundries. Like any decent parent.
Anything not related to elephants is irrelephant.
re: Bessler's wheel and God
Greendoor...
God's "omniscience" extends to knowing every concievable choice you can possibly make before you do, but not which one for reasons of your own in any given instant you will either deliberately or spontaneously choose to select. That is "free will" and the two are by no means incompatible in any way. In fact it can't work any other way.
That "choice" among an infinite number of probabilities and probable outcomes that are all "real" in the sense that they can be physically real, or that their potential to be physically "realized" is latent or incipient in them is the basis on which our reality is derived from the quantum one and those two are also by no means incompatible, either.
The choice is always your's to freely make most particularly when comes to your own beliefs and expectations and the reality as much as it is physically possible will simply facillitate them. Don't ever be fooled into thinking something must be true simply because the reality you percieve doesn't contradict it. That isn't it's function, nor how it operates.
You are a very real player in the selection of quite real psychological constructs that are then being continuously expressed in physical form quite naturally and with no need on your part to worry about the unseen mechanics of it. They're supposed to be that way and you are intended to be just as solidly impressed by those results.
God's "omniscience" extends to knowing every concievable choice you can possibly make before you do, but not which one for reasons of your own in any given instant you will either deliberately or spontaneously choose to select. That is "free will" and the two are by no means incompatible in any way. In fact it can't work any other way.
That "choice" among an infinite number of probabilities and probable outcomes that are all "real" in the sense that they can be physically real, or that their potential to be physically "realized" is latent or incipient in them is the basis on which our reality is derived from the quantum one and those two are also by no means incompatible, either.
The choice is always your's to freely make most particularly when comes to your own beliefs and expectations and the reality as much as it is physically possible will simply facillitate them. Don't ever be fooled into thinking something must be true simply because the reality you percieve doesn't contradict it. That isn't it's function, nor how it operates.
You are a very real player in the selection of quite real psychological constructs that are then being continuously expressed in physical form quite naturally and with no need on your part to worry about the unseen mechanics of it. They're supposed to be that way and you are intended to be just as solidly impressed by those results.
Fondest Regards from the Fox
re: Bessler's wheel and God
Greendoor,
Good point. Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Judas seemed to be a pawn in the scheme of things, didn't he, It's as if he had no choice in his actions.
Ben
Good point. Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Judas seemed to be a pawn in the scheme of things, didn't he, It's as if he had no choice in his actions.
Ben
re: Bessler's wheel and God
hi Nick ,
I never touched your greenie either , and just to prove it , Im going to give you one as soon as I figure out how to do it ( this morning sometime)
I think you deserve it - and it aint costing me nothing , just like those few candles I couldnt resist lighting in the church when I was about 8 years old and didnt have any money to pay for them .
If I have to settle up that account before dying (at say 8% compounding) - I dont think I can afford to die - and its getting worse as I get older !
Regards Art
I never touched your greenie either , and just to prove it , Im going to give you one as soon as I figure out how to do it ( this morning sometime)
I think you deserve it - and it aint costing me nothing , just like those few candles I couldnt resist lighting in the church when I was about 8 years old and didnt have any money to pay for them .
If I have to settle up that account before dying (at say 8% compounding) - I dont think I can afford to die - and its getting worse as I get older !
Regards Art
Have had the solution to Bessler's Wheel approximately monthly for over 30 years ! But next month is "The One" !
re: Bessler's wheel and God
meChANical Man.
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"All things move according to the whims of the great magnet"; Hunter S. Thompson.
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"All things move according to the whims of the great magnet"; Hunter S. Thompson.
re: Bessler's wheel and God
They are some good questions justsomeone but any and all possible answers are way to numerous to answer from the limited perspecive of we mere mortals who are so focused in our 3d/4d experience. If you want to do it some justice though you can begin by creating trees that branch off from the questions and follow each to their logical end, and you'll have to include the idea that there may not be a god if you want the work to be thorough and unbiased.
meChANical Man.
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"All things move according to the whims of the great magnet"; Hunter S. Thompson.
--------------------
"All things move according to the whims of the great magnet"; Hunter S. Thompson.
re: Bessler's wheel and God
hi Silverfox,
Thats a fascinating article from American_almanac that you posted .
I have often wondered about the circumstances of Besslers death .
Papins and Leibnitz's enemies around Cassel and Besslers frequent reference to his enemies ( and he seemed to be at a loss in understanding why these people were targeting him ) - indicates that Karls place was a hotbed of political skullduggery.
Has anybody ever tried to research the circumstances of his death ?
As an amusing aside :- I visited Kassel in 2008 , and was intrigued to find that the name of the person in charge of the archives that have Besslers documents was Herr Wagner ! :) .
I hope the people in Kassel dont have allegiancies stretching over 300 years :)
Art
Thats a fascinating article from American_almanac that you posted .
I have often wondered about the circumstances of Besslers death .
Papins and Leibnitz's enemies around Cassel and Besslers frequent reference to his enemies ( and he seemed to be at a loss in understanding why these people were targeting him ) - indicates that Karls place was a hotbed of political skullduggery.
Has anybody ever tried to research the circumstances of his death ?
As an amusing aside :- I visited Kassel in 2008 , and was intrigued to find that the name of the person in charge of the archives that have Besslers documents was Herr Wagner ! :) .
I hope the people in Kassel dont have allegiancies stretching over 300 years :)
Art
Have had the solution to Bessler's Wheel approximately monthly for over 30 years ! But next month is "The One" !
re: Bessler's wheel and God
It was allah who gave us Gasoline :D
Re: re: Bessler's wheel and God
This is a spurious heretical 'gospel' that is by no means considered part of the 'recieved Word of God'. It wasn't even discovered until the 1970's ... do you think that if this was a legitimate part of God's Word that he would have let this one slip? (Silly question to ask an atheist - sort of rhetorical I guess).
If you look into the history of the early Christian church, it's interesting to see the heavy political power struggles that tried to wipe it out, and failing to do so, tried to pervert it for political ends. Heretical doctrines sprang up, as a desperate attempt to hijack this runaway train. Many of these spurious 'gospels' are just ancient documents created by heretics of the time, and now used by heretics to try to peddle their version of history.
The history of the Christian bible (including the old testament books) is a fascinating study - and completely inappropriate for this forum. But considering Bessler was a Believer, and considering many people currently interested in Bessler are also Believers, I'm pleased that this thread exists - as long as we stay on topic.
But very briefly - and this won't do it justice - but as an overview for those who want to research it themselves, this what I believe:
Many people, from the ancient Jews, to Sir Isaac Newton (obsessively so) to the recent authors of The Bible Code, etc, etc ... believe that there multiple layers of complexity to 'The Bible' that involve mathematical codes. Some speculate that the history of every single person may be hidden in these special word patterns.
This idea seems unreasonable at first thought - until you realise that words and languages can be used like software to generate MORE words and languages ... that's where the sky is the limit ...
Many intelligent people enjoy codes and ciphers (including Bessler). Now that mankind has developed into software coding, a new world of advanced word manipulation has become possible. It should be fairly obvious that the omniscient intelligence of the Universe - the infinite Creator of the human brain who knows our intimate thoughts - He is extremely likely to enjoy using codes and ciphers and to provide his children with hidden evidence of his involvement.
Even if you have a smattering of knowledge of Numerics, it becomes fairly obvious that there are hidden patterns in the Bible, as received. These are patterns that span centuries - so no possible collusion between human writers could have pulled this off.
One trick used in digital communication is the use of Parity data, so that in the event of a communication getting a little scrambled, the data can verify and even heal itself. If our software guys can figure out how to keep their data clean - don't you think that God has his own ways?
The issue of translation - and deciding which books should and shouldn't be considered as the literal Word of God is problematic, and one that heretics love to bring up. What makes it difficult is that heretics have done their best to muddy the waters and have introduced a lot of disinformation and errors.
The Holy Spirit has actively preserved his word, in mysterious ways. Much of the spurious heretical rubbish tends to be 'discovered' in various dodgy places. The fact that it is ancient isn't proof of anything other than that there have always been heretics. The fact that these documents haven't perished with use tends to suggest they were not considered genuine and not used.
But there is at least one Numerical Bible which uses the embedded numerical codes to clarify any parts of the Bible which may have got a little scrambled. I've got to rush now - but check into it if you need a boost to your faith ... very interesting ...
Anything not related to elephants is irrelephant.
re: Bessler's wheel and God
So the Bible is literally God connecting to COM2 and transmitting down a book of holographic words to Believers who receive it (hope they have a null modem adapter) and that transmission has it's own nebulous interpreted CRC, just don't try to verify the transmission because you might be branded an unbeliever (lowercase) and a heretic? Good grief! :-)
I guess I should say "greed is an evil root" a couple times just to keep this thread on-topic ;-) but I thank Rocky and Wubby for posting those items from Bessler material to try to keep it that way, although since justsomeone has been silent it's hard to know exactly what IS on topic for this thread.
Bessler had an inspirational & revitalizing dream that kept him going when he was down from failure, and that dream he said was from God, then he went on to solve it. I'm not saying he doesn't attribute the solution ultimately to God, just let's keep things straight.
Greendoor, if I've missed a post or am just not privy to something then I apologize, but it seems you are judging and sorting people superficially based on single posts.
Wubbly refers to God as she and with a little unorthodox imagery and he is assumed to be an atheist?
Michael's suggestion to include the non-existence of god to get a more complete picture when questioning the origin of Bessler's solution automatically makes him an atheist too?
And even if that is so, you say it with the connotation that it is somehow evil? Many people do evil things, but you should try making a pie chart of Believer evil-doers vs. unbeliever evil-doers and let me know which hunk is bigger.
You also throw around the words heretic and Believer / unbeliever quite a bit, as in your statement "don't bother arguing your point if you are an unbeliever, because undoubtedly you haven't done the research..."
But that's the trouble isn't it? If your beliefs revolve around a number of details and someone else has a different set of details, then you might be tempted to relegate them to the unbeliever pile in your mind, because their god can't be the same as your god, right? There is only one God and the details are the details, right?
BTW I also believe in God, just not the bipedal white-bearded old sandal wearing fella. I suppose that makes me a heretic? So be it!
I'm glad you only have the power to influence my reputation on this forum using your judging and sorting 'rules'. Unfortunately there are those that have far more power over a wider range of people and they have even more extreme 'rules', not to mention they personally 'know' what God's plan and will is. Watch out!
I guess I should say "greed is an evil root" a couple times just to keep this thread on-topic ;-) but I thank Rocky and Wubby for posting those items from Bessler material to try to keep it that way, although since justsomeone has been silent it's hard to know exactly what IS on topic for this thread.
Bessler had an inspirational & revitalizing dream that kept him going when he was down from failure, and that dream he said was from God, then he went on to solve it. I'm not saying he doesn't attribute the solution ultimately to God, just let's keep things straight.
Greendoor, if I've missed a post or am just not privy to something then I apologize, but it seems you are judging and sorting people superficially based on single posts.
Wubbly refers to God as she and with a little unorthodox imagery and he is assumed to be an atheist?
Michael's suggestion to include the non-existence of god to get a more complete picture when questioning the origin of Bessler's solution automatically makes him an atheist too?
And even if that is so, you say it with the connotation that it is somehow evil? Many people do evil things, but you should try making a pie chart of Believer evil-doers vs. unbeliever evil-doers and let me know which hunk is bigger.
You also throw around the words heretic and Believer / unbeliever quite a bit, as in your statement "don't bother arguing your point if you are an unbeliever, because undoubtedly you haven't done the research..."
But that's the trouble isn't it? If your beliefs revolve around a number of details and someone else has a different set of details, then you might be tempted to relegate them to the unbeliever pile in your mind, because their god can't be the same as your god, right? There is only one God and the details are the details, right?
BTW I also believe in God, just not the bipedal white-bearded old sandal wearing fella. I suppose that makes me a heretic? So be it!
I'm glad you only have the power to influence my reputation on this forum using your judging and sorting 'rules'. Unfortunately there are those that have far more power over a wider range of people and they have even more extreme 'rules', not to mention they personally 'know' what God's plan and will is. Watch out!