My Universal Gravity Wheel IS a runner...

[John Collins]

But it looked from what you wrote as if you had already built it.

[raj]

JC,
Yes, I know I have a runner, that is yet to be built.
What wrong with this claim?
Yes, I have a runner, and I am doing everthing possible to built it.
But I have given all theorical details of how it will work.
You have insinuated and have made everyone believe that your SECRET runner will be ready before the end of 2010.
I have done exactly like you, but unlike you, I have made my concept public.

Raj

[raj]

And when I have built my working Universal Gravity Wheel, I shall just put in public display.
There will be no need for validation from any Tom, Dick or Harry.

Raj

[John Collins]

Yes you're right but I never said it was a runner, just that I thought that it would be. You appear to be stating that your design is a runner when you haven't actaully built it.

[raj]

Even, as a poor retired person, I can have a horse. He is outstanding in training. For me, he is a winner, and I am tempted to bet my life on him. Yet, he has not ran a race yet.
Is this such an alarming and fraudulent claim to make. For me my horse is a winner and I want to race him to show the world.
But then, we may suffer from different interpretation of thoughts.

[jim_mich]

Jim,
I am only the upteenth member of this forum to claim to have a runner. Some are making this claim for years, including yourself.
Raj

JC,
Yes, I know I have a runner, that is yet to be built.
What wrong with this claim?
Yes, I have a runner, and I am doing everthing possible to built it.
But I have given all theorical details of how it will work.
You have insinuated and have made everyone believe that your SECRET runner will be ready before the end of 2010.
I have done exactly like you, but unlike you, I have made my concept public.

Raj

Raj, you are a liar! I've never claimed to "have a runner". I have claimed to have concepts that I beleive would be runners when built. There is a very large difference between thinking a wheel will run and knowing that a wheel will run.

Raj, you are a liar! You do not know if you have a runner until it has been built.

Raj, you are a liar! John Collins has never said that he has a runner. He has said that he has a wheel concept that he believes is a runner.

From the BesslerWiki entry for 'working wheel':

A working wheel would be a perpetual motion wheel that once set in motion continues to rotate while outputting usable rotational torque until physically stopped or the components wear out.

A perpetual motion wheel that is only a concept on paper or in a computer simulation is not a working wheel.

A 'runner' is the same as a 'working wheel'. Such terms are reserved for only wheels that have been proven to work by being built and tested. Everyone is free to say that they think their wheel idea will work. But stating that your wheel does work when in fact it has not even been built is a bold faced lie!


PS.

I still think every new forum member should be asked to sign an oath that they understand a "working wheel" means a real physical wheel and not just a concept on paper.

Someone who thinks that their nag of a horse has already beaten all the other horses in the world even before a single race has been run is really sick.

[raj]

My Universal Gravity Wheel Is a runner...
This is how I started this topic.
Is this a statement of fact or a statement of opinion. You will have to decide.
Then I sought advice as to where or to whom I can refer my invention, for validation.
For me a (open) working device does not need any validation. The proof is self- evident. Only concept needs validation in form of working device.
The first few replies were very friendly.
Then came a torrent of accusations against my goodwill, based upon self interpretation of words and thoughts.
But we are mortals and we have our flaws.

I am terribly sorry if I have inadvertently offended you all with my CLAIM.
God bless you all.

[raj]

Hey Jim, forgive me, one more play on words from me.
My horse won a two-horse race. I bet on him as winner. What a face-saver!!!
Goodnight.
Raj (Human with flaws)

[Ed]

Raj,

I find it hard to believe you fumbled on your wording when you capitalized 'is' in your title. You wanted to stress that your wheel IS a runner. That is not a mistake of wording, is it?

Just be sorry for the lousy alliterations, even though you find it hard to resist - because you won't ;-)

Working Wheel... No matter how many times fast you say it, you won't have one without one!

[jim_mich]

My Universal Gravity Wheel Is a runner...
This is how I started this topic.
Is this a statement of fact or a statement of opinion. You will have to decide.

You have admitted that your wheel has not been built.
If it has not been built then it has not run.
If it has not run then it cannot be a 'runner'.
It is only your opinion that sometime in the future your wheel concept will run.
At the present time you do not have a 'runner', no matter how you might like to twist words.

Then I sought advice as to where or to whom I can refer my invention, for validation.

The United States Patent Office requires proof that any perpetual motion machine will work. You can attempt to explain why it works but it will come down to "you say, they say" and they have the final word. Thus they require a working model. They will not accept that your concept will work just because you say it works. You must have a working model. Validation requires a working model.

For me a (open) working device does not need any validation. The proof is self- evident.

That is why a working model is proof that the concept works!

The whole question boils down to whether or not a concept works. The only sure proof is a model that has been built and can be built again and again that works every time.

Hey Jim, forgive me, one more play on words from me.
My horse won a two-horse race. I bet on him as winner. What a face-saver!!!(Human with flaws)

Your horse has not even been to the race track yet, let alone run any race.

[Fletcher]

Raj .. I too find it curious that you capitalized the word '"IS" a runner' - that is a definite, loud & clear statement with no ambiguity, normally.

You do have an idea for a design that in your mind would be a 'runner' i.e. working wheel, but as yet there is no empirical wheel to prove the assumption.

Many of us are more than a little emotionally invested in ideas we think should work & sometimes this enthusiasm carries over into discussions, but it can easily be seen by others as a form of narcism & delusional.

I suggest to you make a formal arrangement with Ralph & "Arrache' with the aim to build & test your design - the first part of that process will be full & frank disclosure of all relevant information so that they may make an informed assessment - this is because they will be investing, not emotion, but cold hard cash & time i.e. resources - not all resources are limitless so a scoping exercise needs to be undertaken by Arrache to see if it is worth pursuing further.

The thing you will find hardest, IMO, is being able to convince the Arrache members to expend those resources, unless you provide a thorough & convincing argument - there will of course be areas of unknowns or incomplete data, or no data at all - ultimately you are attempting to win their confidence based on what they know of you & what information you provide backed up by their own experience.

They will have a threshold [or checklist] that they set, whereby if your design raises questions that they can't answer, or you have shown an answer to previously unknown questions, they will proceed - that's because it would be in everybody's interests to do so.

Sometimes, an idea is built into prototype not so much because its a 'sure fire runner' but because there are enough interesting questions that need answers to make it worthwhile - usually builds never quite go to plan & technical issues rise during the process which can pose a challenge that was not anticipated - that's where the skill & endeavor of teams like Arrache come into their own - problem solving & availability of real & intellectual resources in a partnership with you.

Be prepared for whatever outcome may arise from that partnership - make it clear that you want a prototyping to proceed as your first aim - much water will pass beneath the bridge before that is likely to happen, unless they decide that a prototype is simply the best way to answer all the questions, especially if the build is relatively cheap & easy to do for experienced men such as these.

Plan B should always be to proceed at your own pace, if you have learnt nothing new to change your mind about the designs chances of success, from the partnership.

[murilo]

Wow!!! Fresh meat on here!

Raj, this is my department ( Sure Working Stuffs ). Welcome!

So, I recommend you to say - so as me - that you have a device that WILL, or IS GOING to run, turn or whatever!

''I have a runner'' you are going to say when it reaches to true material and functional existence. Sorry!

Cheers!
Muliro

[justsomeone]

Jim,

I do like the fact that you are direct and to the point but I think you should lighten up a little ( just a little ). :)

Raj, Good luck with whatever route you go.[/b]

[jim_mich]

As a child certain things were beaten into me. Never lie. Never steal. Never drink. Never smoke. Never swear. No wild parties. Never do drugs. No sex until marriage. Go to church every week. Help others. Turn the other cheek. Work hard. Save for a rainy day.

Believe me, I've lightened up a whole lot since.

[beapilot]

Jim_Mich

I agree with justsomeone. People should discover their mistakes. Let them learn the hard way if they chose not to take others advice. They will find it very embarrassing once they find out it will not run in real life. We all been there.

Joshua