A very close shave

[nicbordeaux]

Well, thanks everybody, I wasn't sure I wanted to show this vid, but what the heck, you only live once, and better to share than die bitter with a "secret". Plus it isn't the vid to end all vids, I think (don't we all...) I have better ;-)

The experiment was intended to muck around with bouncing the ball off deflector plates to get a 360°. What is in the vid was a "let's just fix "x" length of fishing nylon (.9 mm, thick stuff) through the valve hole of the wheel and see if at the bottom (6/180) there is a decent bounce." Length of line was determined by estimation to reach from valve hole and wind round rim until bouncy ball hit ground on full unwind. No joy, wrong length, and bouncy ball falling off before enough momentum gained. No springs, no preload of any sort other than raising ball/weight to tdc.

I have a thing about wheels with just one weight on them released at tdc. Chasing that elusive missing 10 or whatever % to make a full 360°. So a lead mass the same weight as bouncy was attached with masking tape to wheel rim at point where ball rests when nylon line is wound on rim. Happens the place the "experiment" was run is a "step", so by setting gizmo properly, there is enough clearance for ball to swing without hitting ground. The expected result was "ball sails off wheel and has no effect on wheel any longer, remaining 50 grammes has enough energy to carry on thru 360°, ball miraculously appears from ether and lands plop on top of weight".

On running that, a few failures, then for no apparent reason the ball took of like a bat out of hell. Tried again, about 25% success rate. Think there is a line peeling off of rim issue, needs filming HD and observing exactly where line is peeling, if it is (the peeling would mean an unknown release point).

On looking at the slow motion part, I saw the weight was stopped dead at 5, and then moved back up a few degrees, before subsiding to 6. When bouncy ball is at apex, lead weight is at 5. This caused a thought like "oh f*** , if this get's out there will be a "atwood armageddon" ;-)

Anyhow, hope this clarifies things : there is one piece of 50 gramme weight attached to wheel at tdc. The bouncy ball is resting almost next to it (maybe 1 cm away ?) not by design, but loose build, attached to fishing line by way of a small hole drilled all the way through ball. The wheel, if you are patient, can be balanced at 12. Give me any wheel with just one weight, and as long as it isn't a depleted uranium pinpoint weight, I will balance it for you at 12. Eventually. Probably to do with a mite of bearing stick.

The end result is that for 100 grammes released at 12, you get 50 grammes at a bit before 5 , and 50 grammes a load higher. There is a pe gain at the point described.

I will not get involved in any discussion about fakery, atwoods machines or else. In fact, if things turn nasty, it'll go private forum and the vid will be removed and no further results "published" .

Furthermore, at this point, all I can say is that whatever you want to name that gain and the way in which it occurs is utterly irrelevant. The next step is 100 % "replicability" and undisputable proof of quantifiable gain. Until that happens, the event is of no relevance or import.

Again, thanks everybody. And what you see on that video is quite simply what occurred.

[AB Hammer]

Nick

After a closer look at it. I see you have successfully demonstrated on a wheel the effects of a whip. As your counter weight reaches the point of where the ball tensions a snap back effect occurs to get your extra height. With a whip, the tip end from the snatch back breaks the speed of sound. This is what causes the crack sound. The only fear is that it looses everything after that for the energy is spent.

Alan

[nicbordeaux]

Sounds plausible Alan, and yes, at apex the ball has lost ke even though it swings in on a sharp orbit to head from far out left to land at center of wheel or thereabouts. What isn't lost at apex is pe. And as there is this thing called gravity to transform all that lovely pe into ke on the way back to earth, nothing is lost ;-)

[beapilot]

nic,

Only if you wish, you may take the video down and host it on a member's website so no major public views will see it but only people who browse your thread on here.

I see in the whip motion when the ball is sky high that is goes back. Try an experiment to see exactly how high the ball will fly into the air just at the point before the whip by cutting off the line.

I have my own hosting site. It is not a website but a site that host such when a given a link to allow people to view the video. If ya like, I will gladly host it for you but can not guarantee you I can keep up my hosting bills.

If things get nasty, keep me posted!

Joshua

[alexjrgreen]

Nic,

This is the Swinging Atwoods Machine effect. The weight of the falling bob is very briefly 3-5 times normal because of the centripetal force required to keep the bob moving in a circle.

You've managed to store the impulse from this extra weight by stretching the line and releasing it later - the bob should rise 3-5 times the height of the wheel less any energy losses due to the line heating up.

Now you just have to learn to control it...

Très bien fait!

Alex

[nicbordeaux]

Thx Joshua, a kind offer indeed. Not sure it'll be necessary, this thing is pretty crude, there's a load of room for improvement. I'll keep you posted on the very highest possible, either with a shorter unattached line, or a much longer one.

Alex, that could be correct if you mean the line tightens a bit under the effect of the weight, but I can tell you there isn't much elasticity to be had from 30 kg breaking strain nylon with a 50 gram weight. However, the bouncy ball could be acting as an energy store ?

Dave : you asked about the "tether" position. No, it is not 180° across, the tether is much longer than that. And it is simply laid on the wheel rim, no tensioning. The reason for it working only 1/4 of attempts has been found : the line was peeling off the rim on the failed attempts.

[FunWithGravity2]

Beapilot,

It would appear this is the most recent time i remember this idea being proposed.

Per Pequaide's specs... A one meter diameter 40 kilogram rim moving at one meter per second will be moving at about 19 RPM. A weight fixed to the rim and let loose will fly upward about 0.05 meter. A weight flung in an arc outward by way of a string wrapped around the rim should accelerate up to about 40 m/s while slowing down the wheel to almost a stop. (There is a bunch of fudging of the actual values going on here which I can explain if anyone really wants a bunch of geeky formulas involving radius of gyration and such.) This should send the weight up to a height of about 80 meters (about 262 feet). Of course getting the release time just right for the weight to go straight up will be tricky.

Of course the hard part is reversing your process. A weight falling from 80 meters should be able to spin the rim back up to about 1 meter per second, minus friction.

Pequaide, in the past I've tried to help individuals to understand their concepts but many times they do not like what I say, Murilo being a prime example. That is why I stated "They should do it themselves.", simply because many times some people will not believe the results unless they witness it themselves. That is why I say I'm helping. Do you understand how people can be helped to learn by doing it themselves?

The post just before Jims was mine, and pequide's from energy producing experiments.


We are all glad Nic has decided to share the video with us, but please don't think this is the first time this idea has been tried videotaped, or proposed. I think he is on a very important path but also don't your the one leading the way.

Nic you have done something special in that you have shown something that many of us might have kept closer to the vest. What we can do now is talk about it since its in the open :)


Great Vid. Great work, Great Sharing

Dave

[Fletcher]

Nick .. shades of how a trebuchet works I think, except the flung mass is free to leave a pouch to attain height & distance.

Wubbly's sums looks good to me - so the next step might be to carefully re-weigh the masses & line - a point to consider would be to find the natural balance point of the wheel without the attachments - that should have a 6 o'cl position [put a dab of paint there] - now repeat the experiment with the drive mass & ball side by side balanced at 12 o'cl - blow gently on it to get it going - how high does it go this time ?

The main point is that you may have inadvertently placed the heaviest side of the unfettered wheel on the descent side which would not show up in the calculations [possible experimental error] - if it still works against frictional losses AND the heaviest part of the wheel at 6 o'cl starting position [this would be worst case scenario], you will have some very interesting data indeed that will need some serious explaining.

[murilo]

Nic: great, great and great!
I think that you are winding the string around the ball, aren't you?
So, the wheel stops and the ball start to fall and kick 'against' that wheel falling side.
It's a violent pull!
What will happen if you wind the string at opposite to this direction?
Congratulations!
Best!
Muliro

[beapilot]

nic,

I tested this in phun software. I am getting close. Although this software has problems with ropes/chains. I tried using only arms. I am in progress finding out the release points etc. I been using a solid bar directly opposite from the top weights. The bar flings like a powerful whip.

Joshua

[DrWhat]

I think MT18 perhaps points to a design similar to yours Nick. Based on Bessler's comments.

[Mark]

Nick,

Big bouncing kudos to you for sharing. Thanks, it's truly inspiring.

You say ... "a mite of bearing stick". My curiosity ... grease, machine oil, graphite ?

Regarding the effect that your set-up produces, I think you might be on to something. I'll be watching your progress.

About things getting nasty, just ignore all that crap! Don't let it drive you underground.

Thanks also for including the "Another try" segment. Made a big smile here, I appreciate that.

[beapilot]

Nic,

I am not sure about that other guy who discovered the same thing. I am not sure if he proved it. But I want to let you know since you posted this proof of a piece of discover in public settings, time started counting down when it was posted. You have 1 year to patent this thing or anyone can make it without approval (According to the USA Patent Law when one can patent this idea alone). I suggest you to get a provisional patent (about $100) to secure your idea while you make public progress.

Joshua

[nicbordeaux]

Fletcher, quite possible, although I don't see that making a major difference, those wheels spin pretty free and true. Still, correct, there is always a "unloaded" keel position, quite right.

One small point I'll make here is that anybody who's into building stuff, however precise or loose, will know that you will every so often come across some unexpected or "abnormal" behavior or occurence. And sometimes, you take it apart to check, put it back together, and it just doesn't work. Which means that that actual wheel and it's weight and ball and nylon stay exactly as are until such time as the wife backs the car over it. Meaning I'll proceed as suggested, but with a completely different set of elements. Which means a bit of time needed as things are a bit busy just now.

Murilo, no, there is no winding around the ball. The bouncy ball is skewered though with a 1.5 mm hole, threaded on the line, and a big knot tied in the nylon and wedged into the ball. Wind the string in the opposite direction and it doesn't work for the simple reason the ball will be placed a considerable distance away from fixed weight at tdc start point. The nylon is wound from attach to wheel point left to right , and wheel revolves right to left (ccw-cw if anybody objects to that). It didn't look as if it would work wound the other way with different weight placement. Just don't ask me why ;-) And please don't anybody start hollering that it's impossible because a) I agree, b) I don't need to spend an hour making a vid to prove what I'm saying is happening.

beapilot, sounds good. Does the software show that the weight (arm) has a different weight efect on wheel depending on it's extension from rim ? It should. Interesting data if you can get "ideal" release points.

DrWhat : just peeked at MT, and yes, you can read quite a lot of similarity. Bessler promises to show more further on. Have you identiied any sketches ?

Thanks Mark. WD 40 into the old bearings (these are 1960's wheels), and this is the "Normandy" type hub with rollers. The next wheel I'll rebuild and tune as perfect as possible.

The another try ? Try this one ;-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lk2f55CcBD4

[ruggerodk]

Hi Nick,
Great experiment - congratulation ;-)

I don't have the math skills to tell if you'll gain energy or not.
But you sure have gained attention and respect around here ;-D

BUT - I do note that the rim-weight does not reach 6-o'c...it stops some 24-25 degree before that lowest point (see attached image).

How this will influence on the PE an'all, well, other on board this ship is more cabable than I to judge that....

And I still like your way with wheels...like allways you gives us an "AHAAA" experience with a smile.
best regards
ruggero