Bessler's wheel and God

[Michael]

Thanks Ed. I had thought about replying to Greendoor, but it seems he at times likes to be disagreeable person. So I thought why bother. Greendoor I've never told you what I think, but I do value criticle ( sane ) thinking above most things.

[greendoor]

Ed - I never said being a heretic was a bad thing. I guess i'm a heretic myself. I was just using the commonly used words in the context of typical Christian Bible believers.

I don't believe in atheists - and I suspect that God doesn't believe in atheists either. Most self-styled atheists i've come across are so desperate to convince themselves that God doesn't exist that they get very touchy about the subject, and clutch and every possible straw to try to convince others to reassure them that they are correct. If somebody is so sure that God doesn't exit, and that we will all be stone dead with no consciousness for the rest of Eternity - then why bother to makes such a fuss? Why not leave the deluded Believers to enjoy their happy thoughts before the inevitable happens?

The point is: Bessler believed in God. Many people today beieve in God. In searching for a logical belief system, I find it illogical to eliminate God from the equation.

The Universe exists - with absurd displays of Size and Power and Intelligence. Some people desperately want to believe that all this exists temporarily for no reason, and will die a permanent heat death for no reason. Fairly cold comfort - i'm not sure I can see the appeal or the need for such zealous faith.

Either way - God or no God - it's a matter of faith. We aren't going to resolve this in our short lifetime. But - if our Mind continues to exist after physical death - then we could have a very long time indeed to figure it out ...

[DrWhat]

Pascal's wager:

Pascal begins with the premise that the existence or non-existence of God is not provable by human reason, since the essence of God is "infinitely incomprehensible". Since reason cannot decide the question, one must "wager", either by guessing or making a leap of faith. Agnosticism on this point is not possible, in Pascal's view, for we are already "embarked", effectively living out our choice.

We only have two things to stake, our "reason" and our "happiness". Pascal considers that there is "equal risk of loss and gain", a coin toss, since human reason is powerless to address the question of God's existence. That being the case, we then must decide it according to our happiness... by weighing the gain and loss in believing that God exists. He contends the wise decision is to wager that God exists, since "If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing", meaning one can gain eternal life if God exists, but if not, one will be no worse off in death than if one had not believed.

from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

[nicbordeaux]

There are a thousand different understandings of what Agnosticism is.

But what is the definition of a person who believes that God is perfectly plausible, without being a fulltime believer ? Or who believes in a ordained universe without having the remotest idea of what God may be ?

[Ed]

Ed - I never said being a heretic was a bad thing. I guess i'm a heretic myself. I was just using the commonly used words in the context of typical Christian Bible believers.

I'll take you at your word that you weren't being derogatory, but it sure sounded that way when you say things like:

The issue of translation - and deciding which books should and shouldn't be considered as the literal Word of God is problematic, and one that heretics love to bring up. What makes it difficult is that heretics have done their best to muddy the waters and have introduced a lot of disinformation and errors.

I would hope that in debating translations of Bessler material, not yet even 300 years old and that we have the direct source of, one can see the potential problems of following the literal text. Now apply that to something as old and that has changed hands as many times as the writings that make up the Bible. Personally, I find it illogical to literally believe in an "Omnipotent, Omnipresent & Omniscient God that knows the location at any point in Time of every particle in the Universe" and that needed 6 days to create it all and 1 day to rest. So I took it personally, because apparently my thoughts on the subject would be adding to the "muddy waters"?

The point is: Bessler believed in God. Many people today beieve in God. In searching for a logical belief system, I find it illogical to eliminate God from the equation.

If someone is searching for a logical belief system, by definition they would be required to consider the possibility that God doesn't exist. Likewise, we also need to consider that Bessler was a fraud if we want to conduct unbiased research. This is what I believe Michael was talking about, but I'll let him speak more to that. Unfortunately you didn't even give him the benefit of asking him to clarify before judging him.

For many reasons, i'm absolutely convinced that we are spirit beings and our conscious mind does not depend on having an earthly body. The implications of that are astonishing, if you have the balls to allow yourself to think about it ...

- God said that if we ask, we receive - if we seek we will find
- Sometimes we can get what we ask for, but it isn't God's perfect will
- BUT - I suspect this was God's perfect will
- God often gives his prophets a glimpse of the future, at a time when they can't see it take place in their own time
- The Holy Spirit decides the times and seasons and boundaries - "thus far and no further" ... until the chosen time
- God "gives young men visions, and old men dreams"
- God doesn't let his people be fooled - He exposes error and injustice, in His own time and in His own way
- God loves to hide things from the "wise of this world", and give things to children.
- He knows the location of every particle in the universe at any point in time.
- He can't be fooled, ever.
- He must look down on the "wise" and arrogant people as being very dumb children who are out of line.
- Like a good parent, He just lets them make an arse of themselves so they can find a little humility perhaps
- God knows the consequences of everything He allows.
- God also says that he created the wicked for his own purposes.
- This is a spurious heretical 'gospel' that is by no means considered part of the 'recieved Word of God'
- The Holy Spirit has actively preserved his word, in mysterious ways.
- I suspect that God doesn't believe in atheists
- God is a he

Obviously some of this you are paraphrasing from the Bible, but which? (that's rhetorical) It seems you often know what God is all about to a large degree. Interesting.

I'm not one to be in anyone's face quoting the Bible, but in this case whilst you are dangling and contemplating...

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

I would be careful if I were you. If you speak often enough on behalf of God and the Holy Spirit, you may eventually get it wrong. The implications of that are astonishing and you could have a very long time indeed to figure it out whilst your nuts are roasting on that proverbial spit jack.

I don't believe in atheists - and I suspect that God doesn't believe in atheists either. Most self-styled atheists i've come across are so desperate to convince themselves that God doesn't exist that they get very touchy about the subject, and clutch and every possible straw to try to convince others to reassure them that they are correct. If somebody is so sure that God doesn't exit, and that we will all be stone dead with no consciousness for the rest of Eternity - then why bother to makes such a fuss? Why not leave the deluded Believers to enjoy their happy thoughts before the inevitable happens?

IMHO, the scale tips towards people of faith (so called and zealous) being more likely to try to push their beliefs on other, not atheists. It seems like you (and many others) would hold a repeat sinner or even a terrorist or a devil worshiper in higher regard than an atheist because at least those people believe in God? An atheist could be the nicest, most charitable person there can be, but they would still be "not believed in" as if to make them go away!?

As DrWhat's post about Pascal's wager and "If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing" is likely the type of reason you would want the atheist to convert over, what about their God given right to exercise their measure of free will?

I think it's just better to exemplify your beliefs and maybe others will take something from it, than to push anything... no matter what you believe. Wouldn't you agree? Otherwise how do you know when you may be going against God's will trying to convert or scorn anyone who doesn't share your beliefs?


http://www.movieweb.com/tv/TEenMfjlU5Vl ... Bxrrjp4buv

[daxwc]

Hmm...


I knew at the start of this thread it was preordained for a stagnated pool of raw human excreta and would never stay on topic, only one laughing is Justsomeone. He has constructed half his wheel, while you all argue whether on the seventh day God brought pork chops or beef tenderloin to the grand opening.

tks

[Ed]

Funny, 'cause you didn't add anything relevant to it just now either. Hmm indeed! Besides, beef tenderloin may have been how God motivated Bessler to get to the solution. You don't know what he was dreaming about. Mmm, beef tenderloin...

At least I came closer talking about Bessler in this context. ;-)

Yes, just where is justsomeone anyway?

[justsomeone]

I'm right here Ed. ;)

Ok, here is my thoughts.

I think God gave Bessler the solution to the wheel but I don't believe it was the right time in God's plan for us to have it.

I believe God will choose who to reveal the secret to. Will it be someone with a good relationship with him? I don't know. Will he give it to someone that will give him the credit? I think so.

One thing I was thinking is the world wide debut of a gravity wheel may disrupt the worlds economy and possibly play a part in the end times.
I believe this is very possible. I believe the bible says Jesus will return before the generation dies from the time the Jewish people got there land back. Any one with a much better knowledge of the bible, feel free to correct me.

I want you to know I haven't had a good relationship with God for several years. No excuse on my part, just a fact.

Thanks for all the posts!

[Michael]

Justsomeone I don't want to tell you your business but there is a world of difference between God and religion. Religion is usually politically motivated. Do you go out of your way to hurt people and life in general? If not then your not going against God.

Michael

[greendoor]

I would be careful if I were you. If you speak often enough on behalf of God and the Holy Spirit, you may eventually get it wrong. The implications of that are astonishing and you could have a very long time indeed to figure it out whilst your nuts are roasting on that proverbial spit jack.

... what about their God given right to exercise their measure of free will?

I think it's just better to exemplify your beliefs and maybe others will take something from it, than to push anything... no matter what you believe. Wouldn't you agree? Otherwise how do you know when you may be going against God's will trying to convert or scorn anyone who doesn't share your beliefs?

Ed - interesting viewpoint. You seem to be well versed in scripture. I'm guessing you were raised as a Christian, and decided it didn't suit you, but need to be able to justify your choices to yourself.

I would hope that I never attempt to speak on behalf of God. I was raised as a fundamentalist bible-bashing Christian. I no longer darken a church door. I'm allergic to religion - it makes me gag. I especially distrust people who presume to speak words from God. You are right - that is a very scary thing to do, and I fear for those people. Hopefully they do it in ignorance.

But Christians do believe that the bible is the Word of God, directly written by the Holy Spirit. Because the text itself says as much. There is even a curse on those who would dare change the text. But the text also says that the bible can only be interpreted by the Holy Spirit. I've seen many people attempt to interpret the bible and get egg all over their face. You are right - it's a scary position to be in.

And yet the bible talks about prophets, and preachers, and the need for believers to spread the Word to the ends of the earth. I don't have the answers. I don't feel called to speak on God's behalf, and would try to wriggle out of it if God ever asked me.

But what I have come to believe is that space is not empty. I believe there has to be an Aether - a highly elastic medium through which waves propagate. I believe that mass and energy are like bubbles in this medium. Like a fish observing bubbles in a fish tank - the bubbles seem like the only real observable things in the tank. But in reality, the water (the "Void") is the real thing, and the bubbles are if anything "less real".

So - instead of looking out into empty space and saying "where is God" - I can't see Him? I prefer to think that He is literally Everywhere, that He is the source of all energy, and that He knows the position of every particle and wave, past, present and future, because He IS the medium in which they exist.

This is the only way the text of the bible can be literally true. And I would say that any scholar who suggests that the bible need not be literally true is walking on very thin ice. Let God be true and every man a liar, as it says.

If you believe in a God this big - it's mind boggling. He would of course know your every thought - from every angle. Scary stuff. But also comforting, if you believe Him when he says He loves us.

All or Nothing - that's what I say.

Atheists choose nothing - life & mind get extinguished, and we become stardust.

I choose All - when my body dies, I expect to find myself still thinking, still loving life, moving on to something better with no end in sight. What that is - who knows? Something awesome I expect ...

Do our beliefs and choices here matter? Well obviously that depends on whether life is really All or Nothing ...

Either way you look at it - the Universe is pretty weird. I don't have the faith to believe it's all ultimately Nothing. Looks like Something to me ...

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi all,

As God has not told me what he want from me directly, and I distrust all religions, I believe that God installed a bible into our heads this is why we instinctively know what is right and what is wrong, I do not know what God is! God could be the universe lets be honest who knows for shore! There are no experts on the subject! so instead I just follow my instincts if God is a Supreme Being then I do not think God would want us all grovelling at Gods feet instead I think he would smile on the people who enjoy all the fantastic things God has given us, for example when I have a fantastic day windsurfing I believe God is with me sharing the experience this is not just windsurfing but all of our experiences good or bad! So my religion is looking up at the stars now and again and saying thank you God! Whether there is a God or not we should all give thanks for life, but if there is a God then I stand before God with a clear conscience and if you have a clear conscience then you have followed Gods installed bible!!!

[jim_mich]

... this is why we instinctively know what is right and what is wrong

We are not born with a sense of what is right and wrong. These things are taught to us by our parents and by society around us. We are taught to feel bad when we break certain rules of society. This is the guilt that we feel. If we learn different rules that say it is OK to do certain things then we do not feel guilty. If a society says it is OK to have multiple wives then we don't feel guilty. If society says it is OK to beat your slaves then you don't feel guilty. If a child grows up exposed to drugs and wild sex then he/she does not feel guilty in doing drugs or having wild sex. A thief usually justifies his actions. He may think that it is your own fault for making it so easy to steal your possessions. Or he may think it unfair that you have things that he doesn't have. A crook will think that it is not his fault.

Teach your children well, gently with love, else society will teach them harshly.

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi Jim,

then you most have had lots of lessons in contradictions, I hope you have been taught humour!

Regards Trevor

[Michael]

We are not born with a sense of what is right and wrong. These things are taught to us by our parents and by society around us.

I completely disagree with you on your first part Jim. As soon as an organism senses pleasure and pain it knows instinctively what is right and wrong. A self aware, not self absorbed, individual knows how to treat others. The survival mechanism can force a being to make bad "evil" decisions. Like killing to survive. Greed magnify's it. Parents and society can inflict an equal number of ills on an individual as well as giving them good guidelines. As in, do as I say and not as I do, or what I might do to you, cause it's the right thing to do. Why do you think so many who seek professional help end up blaming their parents, and why some take their pain out on the society they live in? Respect the awareness, and it will grow up with an awesome self esteem holding respect as the highest ideal. But it might be a little sad having to live in a complex and tormented world.

[Bill_Mothershead]

We are not born with a sense of what is right and wrong. These things are taught to us by our parents and by society around us.

This reminds me of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_Flies

I never read the book, but saw BOTH movie versions. Great stuff.

Any anthropologist will tell you Jim is right.

Morals and anything to do with religion is learned behavior
and not biologically wired into the brain.