Energy Transfer in principle - discussion

[coylo]

In reply to Sevichs model, I guess it follows the principle of "the shortest/quickest way there (to a destination) is always in a straight line". Which leads me to believe that the curved railing is a slightly longer route, if you were to stretch it out.....................maybe.

EDIT: I have just read Jonathan's brachistochrone link, and it has already touched on what I wrote.

[Vic Hays]

That is an interesting principle. Maybe it can be combined in some way to make a wheel turn?

Perhaps the centrifugal force increase as the ball goes over the curved part of the track could power a wheel. Maybe Bessler used this for his wheel. Increased velocity over a radius.

Have wieghts moving in pairs one inward and one outward over a curved track on the down side. or swinging in pairs from pivot points. driving the wheel by centrifugal force rather than gravity.

[Michael]

I think it is impossible Sevich. The first ball will actually be slower because of friction. If you recreated that device properly you will see that.

Reg.

Mke

[Jonathan]

You are wrong Michael. The track with the dip has a greater length, so the energy removed due to friction would be greater in it. Because the track has a dip, the velocity of the ball increases then decreases, so it's average velocity is higher. But the length of the track is also longer, so that cancels a little, but not completely. It can cancel and there be equal times, and probably with the right track design, the dip track could take longer.

[Michael]

You have me confused Jonathan. I am assuming that the first ball in question was the track with the dip. It can't finish faster than the other one unless the track length is shorter or at a steeper angle.

I think you'll find some on here are assuming the first ball is the closest one to to the viewer and others are assuming it's the other one, and it sounds like that your idea is the curved one will go faster because of your link.


Reg.

Mike

[Patrick]

I like this experiment. It displays a device that gets a 'boost' from gravity. I think when people see how Bessler make his wheel rotate, it will have a similar impression. It will look impossible but it will work. Bernoulli was the mathematician that explained the shortest descent path being curved instead of linear; it is interesting that he lived approximately during Bessler's time and contributed many mathematical studies to the science journals of the day, in particular Acta Euriditorum.

[jim_mich]

Basically the dip speeds the one ball up and it then out races the second ball. When the first ball rises back up to the same level it is farther ahead.

[Scott Sieger]

heres my take on it,



Conservation of energy means there is no gain in energy however because the ball has traveled the same distance faster it wins.

Sorry if my diagrams seem some what over the top....hmmmm...It's just that I like to lay out a problem/solution in this manner for my own records.


as an example
flat distance average speed = 10sec/10cm
dipped distance average speed = 8sec/12cm

[coylo]

I think you'll find some on here are assuming the first ball is the closest one to to the viewer and others are assuming it's the other one, and it sounds like that your idea is the curved one will go faster because of your link.

In my case you are right Michael.
I assumed the track furthest from the viewer was the first one. (DOH)
So if you all are saying that the ball going down the track with the dip is faster and finishes first then that is.................. interesting.

Anyone got anymore confusing experiments?

[Jeff L.]

Here is an interesting animated graph of the brachistochrone which compares weights moving along different paths, primarily cycloid versus straight line.

It got me to thinking about getting a weight from the ascending to the descending side of a wheel quickly without having to ride through the apex. What if a cycloid-shaped ramp from one side of the wheel to the other was able to transfer a weight quickly enough so that it added enough mass to the descending side to keep the wheel unbalanced and rotating until the next weight was transferred and the process repeated (indefinitely)? Sounds like some serious food for thought to me...


http://home.ural.ru/~iagsoft/BrachJ2.html


Jeff L.

[Sevich]

Hi all,

The first ball will actually be slower because if friction

After franticly searching, I finally found that website again.

It's all in German. (at least Georg & Harti Stefan can understand)

Just click on the short VIDEO and download!!!!.....it's the second last picture to the bottom of the page.


http://www.hcrs.at/KUGEL.HTM

I urge everyone to check it out.............A MUST!!!

[Jonathan]

My picture may confuse you, but my last post should have been clear. I agree with Scott S., Jim, and Patrick.
Thanks for the URL Jeff, and what you posted got me thinking. Fast up, slow down. That's what Georg always says! I came up with the device shown, that should be an easy test of Georg's theory. The red balls go down a straight incline, pushing along a toothed conveyor like a catepillar tractor. When they reach the bottom, they hop off the conveyor and onto the cycloidal path, and if they have not lost too must energy on the way down to the conveyor, they will quickly go back up and start over. I think that even if there were no conveyor, friction alone would stop the device from being perpetual.

[Michael]

Hi Coylo, you wrote;

>In my case you are right Michael.
I assumed the track furthest from the viewer was the first one. (DOH)
So if you all are saying that the ball going down the track with the dip is faster and finishes first then that is.................. interesting.

No it is not me who is saying that. I personally don't believe it, but then I have been wrong before.

Reg.

Mike

[Fletcher]

Awsome link Jeff, thanks. Edit: Didn't see page 2.

[Neo]

Questions...what would happen if the tracks where made longer and the one with the dip now has two dips instead?

Would the ball gain more energy thus travel twice as fast to reach the end?

Can it be modeled in Working Model?