Why didn't Karl buy Bessler's wheel?

[ovyyus]

Something that's always puzzled and bothered me is the fact that Karl didn't buy Bessler's invention. Karl was the only person Bessler conveyed his secret to and he was one of a select few who could actually afford the asking price.

Karl knew Bessler's secret and he apparently agreed that it was ‘true PM’. Yet Karl didn't pay the 20 thousand Thalers asking price and thereafter go down in history as benefactor of the most important invention in the last 10000 years. Why!?

Why didn't Karl buy Bessler's wheel? He was very wealthy. He supposedly paid his mistress this some of money or more in gifts. Was Karl not interested in everlasting fame? Was Karl short of money (the chick's have all my cash)? Why would Karl not buy Bessler's wheel? Why would anyone not buy Bessler's wheel, that could afford it?

Certainly there were several interested parties that at least started negotiations. But they didn't know what Bessler's secret really was and Bessler insisted on a very specific transaction - you give me the money first then I give you the secret - so they were probably a bit wary of being duped. IMO, these circumstances and the strict transaction conditions made for slim chance of a sale.

But Karl was privy to Bessler's secret AND he had the money to buy it. Yet Karl chose to let another benefactor take his place in history. Why? It doesn't seem to make sense.

I'm sure this line of reasoning was considered by some would-be buyers at the time. I could imagine them say, "why hasn't Karl bought the wheel, he knows how it works yet he hasn't bought it... hmmm".

Comment?

[Nathaniel]

I've given thought to that question when I read J.C.'s first book (or maybe it was A.P. - I don't remember). From what I understood about this time period, there were many fantastic (as seen through their eyes) mechanical devices being built and displayed for royalty. The men of "science" were almost like magicians with all their mechanical "trickery". These machines had more entertainment value than practical usage.
Bessler was trying to sell his machine as a practical device - something that could be used to do useful work. But those with the money may not have had the vision that Bessler had. A device like that would be great to have - today. But back then it was more like "Well huh, look at that." It was just another fantastic machine. Karl did not see the potential for Bessler's wheel. Or, if he did, it was of no interest to him. He thought he was doing Bessler a good deed by giving him a place in the castle to do his work and some contacts to get interested buyers. Karl probably thought that was satisfactory. And from what I understand, he was an older gentleman, so his focus was probably not on finding pm for the world. Besides, women are expensive to keep happy. :)

[John Collins]

Good question and one I've pondered on at some length. I came to the following conclusion. Karl's deal with Bessler was that he could not reveal anything about what he had seen nor could he make use of the technology within the wheel until Bessler had sold it for the asking price of 20,000 thalers. Now of course he could have bought it himself, but why bother

As far as he knew Bessler would sell the wheel to someone at any time within a few months and once that was done he (Karl) could make use of what he knew free! Why pay 20,000 thalers when he could get it for nothing in a few months?

Remember also that Karl was engaged in a massive building program and was also known as an extremely careful man so he would not want to spend that kind of money when there was an alternative which would get him the machine free.

When Karl came to his throne his country was vitually bankrupt and it was by sheer guts and determination that he dragged the state out of penury and into enormous wealth. He was something of a wizz with finances and it all adds up to a picture of a man who was careful with his money. Poor old Bessler had to beg several times for the 4000 thalers promised at the initial signing of the contract for revealing the secret to Karl.

[jim_mich]

The way I see it during Bessler's time only a ruler or king and the people as a whole would benefit from a working wheel. There was no patent protection except by some type of royal decree. Why didn't Bessler build a small mill to grind flour? His mill would have worked all day and night instead of just when the wind blew. He would have had an advantage over other mills. Or he could have built any number of other power needing devices. At some point someone would see the inside and learn how it works. The idea would then spread and others would also build wheels. Once the idea is common knowledge the inventor could no longer gain any profit from the idea, except by building and selling wheels.

The really sticky part is anyone who might buy the idea from Bessler is stuck in the very same situation himself. The end result is that in order to make much money Bessler needed someone who would benefit from the wheel AND who had money. The head of government would be the only one who could benefit and make money from Bessler's idea. They could tax each wheel. Also the kingdom as a whole would become more profitable.

This same situation arises today if an inventor wants to sell his idea to a manufacturer but does not have a patent. You can only charge a premium price on a wheel if you are the only source for that wheel. Otherwise you might just as well manufacture some other more profitable widget.

[graham]

This is an interesting thread and I would like to put in my two cents if I may.

Once Karl knew the secret of the wheel why would he need to pay for it? Besslers own words were that it was so simple anyone could make one once they knew the secret . If it was indeed very simple and Karls curiosity had been satisfied, then it was sufficient for Karl just to support JB in his quest for a financial killing from some other poor sucker.

No one at the time could forsee how important his invention would be and in the end it was JBs greed , "that evil plant" which caused the world to lose that beautiful creation of his .

Still all is not lost for those who still seek the answers, for if it were not for Bessler I for one and all who visit this forum would be firmly in the ranks of those who say it is an impossibility

Graham

[Michael]

I had actually heard a few years ago that there was a patent program during this timer period. Still all in all it is a great point. To buy the machine would give Karl even more authority.

Reg.


Mike

[Jonathan]

I agree with what has been said above, and another thing occurs to me, though it is slightly off topic. Who would buy a wheel if they knew that Karl had the secret and would use it as soon as the wheel was bought? It seems Bessler backed himself into a corner.

[Fletcher]

All of the above seems entirely plausible. I wonder if there wasn't also an element of "be damned" or indignation on KarlÂ’sÂ’ part. It took time for him to pay the 4000 thalers afterall.

Bessler said to Karl that he was terrified a buyer would want his money back once his wheel was sold & the purchaser discovered the secret, because itÂ’s working principle was so simple. He implies that once the mystique is removed the new owner would feel foolish or embarrassed paying for such a simple idea. So much so that they might very well risk their honour & reputation to get their money back. Clearly JB himself wasnÂ’t entirely convinced of its monetary worth & he knew the secret. That's presumably why he insisted on full payment to escrow first so that the purchaser couldn't renege after the fact. ThatÂ’s also possibly why JB wanted a one-time payment. Karl knew the secret & said as much by saying a carpenterÂ’s boy could study the workings of the wheel for a short period of time & then set about building it. It was clearly very straightforward once the principle was known, almost worthless one might suggest though you can hardly imagine the juxtaposition.

Now put yourself in Karl’s’ shoes. He will get the idea for free anyway as JC said. He is also aware that there is virtually little or no practical protection for the purchaser once the secret is out because every man & his lackey can set about & make one to irrigate the fields or grind the grist, royal privilege, law or no law. He couldn’t practically protect his investment. In economic terms there was insufficient “Barriers To Entry” & anyone could set up shop & build one tomorrow with parts from the back shed at little cost. These economic principles are equally valid today, one might add, if JB’s principle is “common knowledge”, only applied in a currently unseen way ?!

Add to that that the steam engine had been invented just prior to JBÂ’s wheel & was getting all the publicity around Europe. It was far more powerful (for pumping mineshafts, driving sawmills etc) & there was an abundance of forests within easy practical reach, at every staging post to fuel the firebox. There was plenty of labour resource aswell. When you are not limited by resources then once again law of diminishing returns comes into play influencing decisions to adopt or promote one competing technology over another. Possibly in KarlÂ’s view JBÂ’s wheel for practical purposes would be redundant before heÂ’d snapped his wallet shut. How could he have foreseen the unique need for JBÂ’s wheel in the 21st century.

-fletcher

[scott]

This is one of the most interesting threads ever on besslerwheel.com. Thanks everyone!

[coylo]

Bessler said to Karl that he was terrified a buyer would want his money back once his wheel was sold & the purchaser discovered the secret, because itÂ’s working principle was so simple. He implies that once the mystique is removed the new owner would feel foolish or embarrassed paying for such a simple idea.

If it was so simple, then wouldn't all your time and efforts be greatly under-appreciated (by the rest of the world). No one would take notice of the sacrifice you had made for the project, all those late sleepless nights.

I agree with Scott that this is a great thread. It raises the question that (although we often agree that we should build a working model first and answer such questions later)........
Just what are we (I/you) to do if we should crack Bessler's wheel/PM?
In terms of "cashing in" Bessler was/felt trapped and despite today's modern patent laws I don't think much has changed from the situation Bessler faced.
Do you think the world is going to let you (the inventor) have control over such an invention? No one will give a shit, it will be every man for himself. Almost everyone will aquire a dodgy PM machine just like downloading an illegal track from Kazaa or Napster, and that will be one less bill to pay.
I know Jim gave a plan and I gave an alternative, but I have another alternative. It's possibly the only way to make real money with peace of mind (depending on your conscience), but it goes against everything I stand for...............I'll submit it tomorrow.

Right now, I need some sleep........

[MrTim]

Add to that that the steam engine had been invented just prior to JB’s wheel & was getting all the publicity around Europe.

A good analogy would be (between a steam engine and a PM wheel), given the choice, would you rather have a loud flashy Harley-Davidson, or a bicycle? (Granted the motorcycle will run out of gas eventually, it's still going to be more fun, not to mention a status symbol.)

After reading AP and DT, I got the impression that Bessler thought the sale of his wheel was a "sure thing" within a year of each respective publication. I think what happened is that everybody waited for everybody else to be the first purchaser, but as time went by they lost interest (and by then they had steam engines to play with.)
I also think that Karl was kind of a "silent partner", and was expecting a kickback from the sale. One good reason not to buy it yourself!