energy producing experiments

[nicbordeaux]

Hi Greendoor, you might have missed this one. But who wouldn't, there's a load of material on this site :=)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBwrf5dtQfs

Decent bike hub, long allloy lever, balanced and dead center pivot. No joy from the dump and jerk after a bit of free rotate. But maybe fiddling around with different methods something can be obtained.

It's over at a topic called 'da mad Fiziks experiment". And it's for validation/reference data, because onto a wheel and it's likely CF causing abnormal results.

The wheel stuff flinging great distances was just having fun with a toy. Course you don't need to launch to Mars. Getting to the end of the tether with the flung mass (that way no dispute about height reached) with small loss of CoG on the driver is the aim. This will be an adjusted for diff calculation, because you needn't waste any time, I can tell you 1 to 1 doesn't work.

[pequaide]

Absolutely beautiful Nick; great job.



I always tried to release the missile at a certain angle, but it looks like just flipping it over the top of the wheel works as well.



What is wrong with a heavy battery attach at dawn; greendoor; isn’t it about time for that? What’s for breakfast?



I like the tandem wheel idea. Two wheels in parallel planes and side by side, fixed to the same shaft: or a wide wheel that rotates about the same shaft. One wheel would be used for drive and the other would be used for throwing. There would be enough clearance between the wheels so that the drive mass would not interfere with the thrown mass.



You could wrap the drive wheel with a string and hang a mass off of its circumference at 3 o’clock. Then by throwing clockwise the thrown mass would have to overcome the force of the suspended mass.



I liked Nick’s second throw. It looked like a small amount of input motion caused a large output motion. All the throws were interesting.



A 45 gram ball hanging from a string that is wrapped around the circumference of a 1000 gram rim can accelerate the rim at about .43 m/sec/sec (45/1045 * 9.81 m/sec). After a drop of one meter the rim and ball will be moving about .919 m/sec. This is about a half rotation per second, and it did not appear to me that the rim was pushed any where near that fast. Yet the ball flew to the end of the tether (above the wheel); and it appeared to be able to rise higher than that if it were released.

[broli]

Currently I should have all the tools and equipment to build a simple experimental setup backed up with scientific data collection. I have a digital oscilloscope that allows me to calculate times accurately. With the new proposed experimental setup it should be quit simple as opposed to the one shot setup or the complex rigid setup:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZaEbdfJPaE

Basically the wire comes from a smaller wheel/bearing goes around the peg at the rim which behaves like the standard cylinder and sphere experiment. Moment of inertia should be calculated once. Two probes can be used on the wheel and on the weight, basically a magnet on the moving parts and coils to make signals on the scope.

A note: It may be more beneficial if two weights are used to avoid wobble on more bigger setups. A simple release mechanism can be added to release the weights when the wheel is spinning.

Procedure:
1) Calculate moment of inertia of setup
2) spin setup and measure it's speed
3) release weights and measure their speed
4) calculate input energy from moment of inertia and angular speed of setup
5) calculate output energy from mass and speed of weights.

I have done a quick test of this and it works quite nicely considering the crudeness and amount of friction involved.

[nicbordeaux]

Well, nice setup if built, and if there is any extra energy in there, it'll make a fantastic moron pendular wheel. the first pendulum to demonstrably gain height.

Usual build avice, if you can get a wooden disk affixed to a bike hub with a long spindle (not one of the quick release stubs), you'll be hard put to find a simpler to build and easier running wheel.

Peq : yes, two hubs is an interesting solution. Have here a 26 in wheel, and an identical steel hub. Either spot weld 'em together, or pop rivet the rim to the one already spoked to hub. If the setup is nice and vertical, in plane, and you are using thin weights, no reason for them to interfere with each other. Well, to be truthful, they will tangle however far you space them apart :=) But only after the work is done.

[pequaide]

Broil: if you use two tethers and two small masses at 180° you can do the experiment in freefall. Tape some strips on your disk so you can see it stop. This will tell you the tether length and mass needed to make the larger disk stop.

When going from freefall to a center bearing you keep the tether length the same. You can use one small mass instead of two; all you do is double the mass and keep the tether length the same. A longer tether allows a smaller mass to stop the disk. A larger mass can use a shorter tether.

I bought a second cart wheel, for the side by side arrangement.

[broli]

Broil: if you use two tethers and two small masses at 180° you can do the experiment in freefall. Tape some strips on your disk so you can see it stop. This will tell you the tether length and mass needed to make the larger disk stop.

When going from freefall to a center bearing you keep the tether length the same. You can use one small mass instead of two; all you do is double the mass and keep the tether length the same. A longer tether allows a smaller mass to stop the disk. A larger mass can use a shorter tether.

I bought a second cart wheel, for the side by side arrangement.

No need for strips. When the weights release and rotate on their own the wheel is left to rotate too. If it keeps on rotating it means the mass or tether are too small. If it is left rotating in the other direction it means the mass or tether are too large. So it's a simple task to keep tweaking the length until the wheel has no rotation when the small weights are spinning.

Example of not enough weight/tether length:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXN-uapYhzI

Example of too much weight/tether length:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVf86exRlvM

[pequaide]

Correct; have fun building.

[nicbordeaux]

I bought a second cart wheel, for the side by side arrangement.

Cartwheel ? Why use something so small? If you can get some rear tractor wheels, you can fling cement bags 500 meters. Now that would be serious fun. And nobody argues with you and lives to tell the tale. Any physics experts cause agro, whop.

[pequaide]

Well; I have a geared 40 kilogram model for which I think 500 meters would be a cakewalk. But it would have to be straight up because the property line is only 50 meters.

And actually; I was interested in how slowly your wheel needs to move to go up one meter.

[nicbordeaux]

It's in the (I think) diameter of the wheel, and the fact that the flung weight, as it untethers in a constrained arc, is gaining speed. A very long tether on a small wheel would require greater wheel speed, meaning more input force to gain the acceleration ?

[jim_mich]

May I ask some questions? Why are you guys trying to stop the wheel? Why are you trying to accelerate the wheel using gravity and then trying to stop it again using the flung weight? Is it not the goal to have a perpetually rotating wheel?

[broli]

May I ask some questions? Why are you guys trying to stop the wheel? Why are you trying to accelerate the wheel using gravity and then trying to stop it again using the flung weight? Is it not the goal to have a perpetually rotating wheel?

Jim after countless discussion you have already made it clear that proving energy creation the scientific way is of no interests to you and to most of the community. So my question to you is why do you still bother and try to steer attention away when experiments are about to be performed to prove said fact. Your question is as ridiculous as asking the wright brothers "why are you guys building a giant kite, don't you need to build a 747".

No one in this community has took it upon himself to prove energy creation with scientific data and graphs. This is quite strange as the experiment itself is on the level of a first year physics course.

The irrational behavioral on this forum has exceeded a threshold into what can be called the "misinformation" area. It has little to do with science and advancing in a logical and technological way. But with active sabotage and disillusion. The only thing that attaches me to this community is this thread. I hope to help out peq with his endeavor and spread the experiment around.

[FunWithGravity2]

Hello All

I agree and second Jim's question as i believe i have asked it myself in this forum several times, But i also can understand why the attempt to prove energy creation would be a simpler task if you have a variable that ends with 0(zero ) as opposed to having to determine how much unergy is left in the momentum of the flywheel if it is still spinning.

My question has been for several weeks, how do you determine percentage of energy gain/creation. I believe it is a 10% gain, i get that by using the distance of height gained as a total over the distance dropped. Dropped 40 inches and rasied 44 would to me be a 10% gain. But maybe i'm wrong. Maybe dropped 40 inches and raised 40.0001 is a 100 % gain since 0 would be the baseline and how do we double zero. I am confused. Is there an accepted format for what is considered a baseline and how a gain above that baseline is considered a percentage of improvement?


Crazy Dave

[Richard]

I honestly believe the value of Bessler's statements of "connectedness" needs to have more importance in design...this for the following reason....

what is connected to the axle will ultimately be conseved energy to the wheel through natural consequence of known physics...of Cf and Cp inertial and ultimately a single moment...a prime mover

The wheel must always IMO have disconnect from the axle so that a gravity / mass attraction is ever present and seperated from the fictional forces of the wheel...thus Bessler's claims of Connectedness

[nicbordeaux]

EDIT: Edited.