Besslers wheel may have been a Hamster Wheel.

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi Beapilot,

I do not have the soft ware, as the hamster is moving down the rollers are pushing the wheel away (around) the slope at 6.00 it is rolling down is now at 7.30 and there is another leg rolling down a slope at 6.00 and so on thus the catch up

I hope this helps, sim it if you want, there is R&D needed to get the incline angles right though, it will be a while before I can build it as most of my wheel build stuff is in use in a torque test design.

Regards Trevor

[triplock]

there is R&D needed to get the incline angles right though,

Look Trevor, you can pick any angle between 0 & 360, it still wont work :-((


As others have stated, the hamster must climb to oppose the fall of the outer frame. There has to be some sort of counter action against this fall.

I understand why you think the angles are important in this design, but they are irrelevant in this instant.

Chris.

[Fletcher]

FWIW.

ANY gravity inspired PMM where acceleration from gravity is the impetus & torque causes rotation has a fatal flaw - first the parts, whether rolling inside or attached via arms & pivots etc, must be preset to an OOB position to create torque - this means the CoG is not aligned with the axle & to one side & the CoG is usually at its highest position attainable - in other words the parts are arranged by hand inputting Pe into the system in order for it to start rotating to find its balance position [PQ] - this position also is its position of lowest CoG height or least Pe [e.g. any weight clock works like this].

But gravity is conservative so after it rotates past PQ the momentum is depleted [due g acceleration] & frictional losses take their small toll the arrangement cannot replenish its Pe of position i.e. get the CoG back up to the starting height & position to repeat the cycle.

Another force must enter the equation to help the reset to replenish Pe to cycle the arrangement as gravity cannot do it alone.

[Tarsier79]

When you have an OB wheel by itself, the wheel will rotate through its forward torque section, and is then met with a quadrant of counter torque. Its forward momentum(if designed properly) is not enough to overcome the counter torque, but will propel the wheel well into the counter torque area.

If you then mount the above wheel as a hamster in another wheel, you would expect the hamster to start the climb up the wall, at least while it has positive torque. Lets say the hamster is mounted on an arm attached to the outer wheels axis, with a one way bearing allowing the hamster to rotate only in one direction.

The hamster rolls up the wall, the outer wheel is heavy enough so that its rotation is delayed a little. For this type of arrangement to work, the outer wheel has to rotate far enough to spin the hamster to overcome its negative torque. This is where your problem is going to lie... oh and what Fletcher said.

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi Tarsier, 79,Fletcher, Chris,

I know where the hamster naturally wants to be and that is where I will make the hamster work in his domain, please boys do not worry about me wasting my time building this hamster wheel as it will only cost me 2 sheets of ply, I have built hamster wheels in the past but nether before pre-armed knowing the hamster will try his hardest to bite me in the arse but still it is my arse on the line, I hope the hamster will turn on me, though not in that way.

It will be that simple to build a carpenter boy could build it, sorry my warped sense of humour got the better of me, but it could throw some light on Besslers Wheel even if hammy goes to sleep in the middle of the wheel, so yes it is worth building when I get the time.

Hi Fletcher, most crap designs will not use gravity as fuel as they will not do anything but take up space, this hamster wheel here may just take up space as well, however to say gravity cannot not be used as fuel because it is a conservative force is bull s*** there are cases where devices need the conservative force of gravity pulling down on both sides to make them work, in time you will believe me.

Fletcher wrote (Another force must enter the equation to help the reset to replenish Pe to cycle the arrangement as gravity cannot do it alone.) This is true generally but there maybe exceptions to the rule.

Any way thanks guys I know you all mean well and want to save me time & trouble but I am a build and learn chap not a scholar.

Regards Trevor
Edit, Bite not bit.

[Tarsier79]

I only hope you will post a video of the final product, its movement etc. Also posting what you have learned by the build may help others in their designs.

All the best.

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi Tarsier 79,

I will go one better and add the video of my last hamster build, in which I gave up on hamster wheels! but with joining this forum and learning a bit about Besslers Wheel I can see no other way to make a wheel run in both direction without pulling a lever.

Its a long shot but worth a try.

Regards Trevor

[Fletcher]

Hi Fletcher, most crap designs will not use gravity as fuel as they will not do anything but take up space, this hamster wheel here may just take up space as well, however to say gravity cannot not be used as fuel because it is a conservative force is bull s*** there are cases where devices need the conservative force of gravity pulling down on both sides to make them work, in time you will believe me.

Fletcher wrote (Another force must enter the equation to help the reset to replenish Pe to cycle the arrangement as gravity cannot do it alone.) This is true generally but there maybe exceptions to the rule.

Regards Trevor

Good luck with that trevor - you are not alone in your beliefs - you are right, I will believe it when I see it [in time] - there are NO exceptions I'm afraid & in time you will believe me !

[triplock]

Firstly,
I note a c-change in your approach to PM design Trevor. and the way you come across in your posts. It's good.

Fletcher is absolutely right when he say Gravity is a Conservative Force, so the key to success is to utilise that pull to earth to our adavntage. Just devise a way to amplify that pull and redirect to create a push upwards. It is irrelavant almost where the weights are ;-))

Chris

[path_finder]

As others have stated, the hamster must climb to oppose the fall of the outer frame

IMHO the side your hamster is climbing can be either.
The most important point is the must for TWO synchronized hamsters.
When the first climbs free, the second one is locked (actuating the wheel by it's own weight, and resetting it's reference position).
In these conditions the double 22,5 grades requirement is assumed, allowing to overpass the 45 grades limit, like explained earlier in this topic:
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/download.php?id=7021
and the animation here (with only one single hamster)
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 7532#57532

It works really well. Unfortunately the building is extremely critical, as explained here:
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 2261#62261
I did not obtain until now no more than few turns (4-5), only because the mechanical problems, the system being desynchronized very soon.

For me today, this concept is one of the certified solution for the unidirectional (one-way) wheels, may be used in the first Bessler (one-way) wheels (excepted Gera wich could be entirely different).
Even if I don't give for the moment no additional information on my 'hamster design', I'm still working today with the improvement of my previous attempts.

In fact I have the same mechanical problems with the second (bi-directional) design (using the sliding crossed arms): the loss of some teeth.
The systematical use of the cycloidal reductor technology should allow me to solve rapidly this question.
IMHO the trick of Bessler (basic idea before the build of any wheel) was the discovery of the cycloidal reductor, wich eliminate the need for any gear and allows an alternative displacement of the contact point. But who knows?

[beapilot]

I never discourage anyone from building their invention. I want to see a PM from anyone in my lifetime. No matter how many times we fail, regardless how stupid we all may seem, it is a life lesson. Keep standing and keep trying unless other situations merge like what happen to Nic. Yes, you may give up, you might not, but always keep in mind, you will always be learning. Eventually, when the world needs an expert who research Gravity wheels, and you hang in there like the several elders here, you may be glad to call yourself a PMM Gravity expert!

I only tell people what I think (or facts) but that does not absolutely prove I am right. Build on like a scientist and enjoy the fact of this hobby but do not be discouraged and do not let this take your life. For which I have learned, patience is a must and never think someone will take your idea. Always share for it is 1 out of a few trillion chances anyone will succeed.

I look forward for your build.

Happy Building,

Joshua

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi Fletcher,

Probably not as I am doomed to keep looking until the day I die, hopefully it will be a long search!

Hi Fletcher, most crap designs will not use gravity as fuel as they will not do anything but take up space, this hamster wheel here may just take up space as well, however to say gravity cannot not be used as fuel because it is a conservative force is bull s*** there are cases where devices need the conservative force of gravity pulling down on both sides to make them work, in time you will believe me.

Fletcher wrote (Another force must enter the equation to help the reset to replenish Pe to cycle the arrangement as gravity cannot do it alone.) This is true generally but there maybe exceptions to the rule.

Regards Trevor

Good luck with that trevor - you are not alone in your beliefs - you are right, I will believe it when I see it [in time] - there are NO exceptions I'm afraid & in time you will believe me !

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi Path_finder,

Thanks for your input not just here but in general your work rate and builds are fantastic,

I have decided to set the hamster loose and made him into a star like creature, this is for two reasons, first Besslers spit roast and the legs falling, the second is that a star shape would be easer to trip forward and unbalance, I am trying to make the hamster fall on the ascending side of the wheel with his legs pushing the wheel behind him, I believe the hamster wants to run between 7.00 & 6.00 o’clock so that is where I will try and make him work as I do not want the hamster to have a up hill struggle, I believe it is not where the hamster is that is important as much as the push back on the wheel that the hamster can achieve,(Edit, although running with the fall must be better than running up hill as running up hill would need more energy,) also it is very important to add fly wheel weight to the design to keep up momentum.

This is all theory ( a tennis ball in a saucepan ) at the minute but I will build it in time.

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Firstly,
I note a c-change in your approach to PM design Trevor. and the way you come across in your posts. It's good.

Fletcher is absolutely right when he say Gravity is a Conservative Force, so the key to success is to utilise that pull to earth to our adavntage. Just devise a way to amplify that pull and redirect to create a push upwards. It is irrelavant almost where the weights are ;-))

Chris

Hi Chris, I have chilled out windsurfing and surfing in North Devon for a while, just needed a break.

I am a big believer in turning negatives into positives and using what is naturally occurring into advantages.

Regards Trevor

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

I never discourage anyone from building their invention. I want to see a PM from anyone in my lifetime. No matter how many times we fail, regardless how stupid we all may seem, it is a life lesson. Keep standing and keep trying unless other situations merge like what happen to Nic. Yes, you may give up, you might not, but always keep in mind, you will always be learning. Eventually, when the world needs an expert who research Gravity wheels, and you hang in there like the several elders here, you may be glad to call yourself a PMM Gravity expert!

I only tell people what I think (or facts) but that does not absolutely prove I am right. Build on like a scientist and enjoy the fact of this hobby but do not be discouraged and do not let this take your life. For which I have learned, patience is a must and never think someone will take your idea. Always share for it is 1 out of a few trillion chances anyone will succeed.

I look forward for your build.

Happy Building,

Joshua

Hi Joshua,

I think Nic is just putting his house in order (literally) I am shore he has not quit.

Thanks for your well wishes,

Regards Trevor