could be a catch/latch wheel ?

[rotater]

hi
been busy working on a very old idea i had from over a decade ago, the movement of the weights to create a continual overbalance is very simple, gave up on the idea years ago, needed a catch latch design that could operate without causing resistance against the wheel, thus hindering rotation when activating, e.g. a cam, this was complicated.

trying to design this latch/catch almost became an obsession. decided that the weight arrangement created a balanced wheel, a pessimistic view, "Why not"! its the best outcome from most of my other ideas, took a break and was never built.

came close to giving up on this gravity wheel pursuit, wasn't too long ago i came across a similar design i was intending to build, on this site, thought i had a new original concept, Lucky though, as it seems to be a non runner.
This led me to go back to basics and look through my old designs, plotted the weight arrangement of this catch wheel design using a simulation program, definitely showed an overbalance.
i could kick myself for not pursuing the idea further, earlier.
there are 3 weights causing the overbalance, against 1 on the opposite side. (if only i knew of these programs earlier)
when 12 weights were arranged on the wheel like a clock, there would be 3 extra weights on the overbalanced side, so 1 side contains 9 weights, the other 6.

trying to design this catch system is doing my head in (again), except this time i will continue with this idea, as i know the wheel is heavier on 1 side, so close, yet so far.
At the moment can only manually mimic the action of the (non auto) test catches/latches.
You may think i'm crazy assuming the wheel could rotate automatically, by manually operating the catch/latches, i don't interfere with the rotation, the wheel rotates X amount of degrees, when latch is in the position to perform its action, i would then manually manipulate the latch procedure, in the same fashion, that the system could (with the correct design + time) perform automatically.

there's more to the design then just catches/latches, i wont be giving it away yet.
children playing, might be a reference of a device used in the wheel, A catch.
Children play catch, either they catch a ball, or more likely play a catch/tag game , played it often as a kid, except the aim when catching was more than a gentle pat, it was usually a wet tennis ball thrown with the aim of bruising, once branded your caught and out (released), and wait for the next round, once all are caught, game resets, last caught is now in control or the leader, of-course the wheel catches/releases its players in a certain order

broken columns could be a reference to a catch releasing an object, when the catch releases its object, what was once whole is now broken apart, then rejoins with a gentle pat on the paws.

Where and how the weight transfers i will keep to myself at the moment, its quite clever

besslers wheel thickness was different top to bottom, this difference in angle could be used in the system for another action needed to complete the transfer of the weights, though there may be extra friction to keep both sides of the wheel running true to each other.
were all of besslers wheels slightly angled ?


i will persevere with this design challenge, if it gets to be too much of a headache, i may decide to present the system to Arrache.

[Fletcher]

Catches & latches are generally problematic, both in real world & sim world - in real world they tend to be gravity operated once a certain angle is reached & the torque on the latch pivot overcomes the friction or spring setting.

One quick & easy way is to just use mini solenoids - effectively you create a electromagnet - then use a radio control device from a cheap childs car set to turn the electromagnet on & off - no hand interference problems - ok, the power is supplied by a remote battery & transmitter but at least you can test your theory of continual over balance before mechanizing the catch or latch if the rest works as you hoped.

In sim world you can add time functions to pin joints or rods - this means you have to create a time measuring meter & watch it carefully - at a certain time ask the rod or pin join to cease acting & it releases - opposite happens when you ask it to act to hold something.

Active When box in wm2d ..... if(t<2,0,if(t>4,0,1)) .. turns latch on after 2 secs & off after 4 seconds etc.

If you're really good you can use wheel angles & parts velocities as the parameters instead of time.

[sadiq attamish]

hi roater
if you really you know how to design the catcher,i thing you become the reader of bessler clues is very clear to you.thanks

[sadiq attamish]

hi roater
but if you do only this ,i thing can not get any thing,you have to consider about the miracle of the two-part graviton,that will give you extra rotational kinetic energy.thanks

[rotater]

Thanks fletcher, i was considering using solenoids, as it could be easier to test.
the overall design of the catch systems, arms, weights, their movements would even make a remote controlled system difficult, would need to purchase many servos or solenoids.
Will keep trying to come up with a simple catch/latch design, the way the weights are transferred around the wheel is too good of an action, to not continue with a catch design, weight does move up the wheel, also in a way it doesn't, and there is always a constant overbalance, it is an effortless movement.
Its difficult to understand, unless you saw the movement.

on my small wheel there is about a 1 to 14 ratio, so if using 14kg weights there would be a 3 kg overbalance ( due to the 3 working weights causing the overbalance), this value improves with a larger wheel.
not sure if its the correct way to test, i worked it out by placing extra weight on the 9:00 (light side) positions weight, until the wheel was balanced.

looking into other ways of achieving this without catches.

did not simulate latches in wm2d, only tested the design for overbalance, by placing the working weights in various positions of their movement, once realized, ran tests on a real wheel.

[Tarsier79]

There is a simple latch on MT36

You can use it in conjunction with a slotted circle to latch a lever at any angle.

Cheers

[rotater]

hi sadiq, i am the last person to understand besslers clues, i am just stating some ideas due to seeing similarities when trying to design a catch/latch,
I could even think that besslers bearings, are not actual bearings that rotate on a shaft, instead it could be a similar idea of the ball bearing catch, the simple door catch, using a ball and spring, not sure if they were around in besslers time.

I am sure the wheel has rotation "with out the use of the miracle of the two-part graviton", as the wheel is always heavier on 1 side.
(sorry sadiq, don't understand the two-part graviton).

now all i need to do is make catch/latch devices in which a hair trigger latch allows the catch to work using only gravity, when in the correct position the weight that activates the catch would be in its best position to perform its task, when the hair trigger latch lightly strikes a plate it activates the catch.

[rotater]

thanks Tarsier,
have been checking out watch clock mechanisms, the latch to hold the catch device would be simple, the difficulty is the catch,
its the way in which the complete catch system is used that makes it difficult to design, can't say much more.

will take a good look at the Mt drawings, came up blank so far.

edit; just had a look at MT36, is there a clear drawing of this, as it a very blurred smudged picture, cant make out MT32-33 either.

[Tarsier79]

Is it possible for you to give the constraints of your latch, without giving away your design? That way someone here may help you with it.

[rotater]

Tarsier,
at the moment, the design of the catch is loosely based on a scissor jack.
short feet at the end of the scissor would grab, only need 1 crossover of the scissor( sorry! needs an extra crossover with other simple mechanical slide used to aid in stability, a single crossover would flip on its single pivot).
have seen a similar system used in scrap yards, the more weight it grabs, the harder it grabs.
small weights would be on longer levers on the scissor arms, arranged so that when weights drop the arms would drop and grab, angle of the arms movement is important as well, scissor would only move a short distance so that the angle for the weights to operate the scissor is in a good position to do light work. scissor arms take some time to work when in a complete open or closed position.
A precise designed latch is used as a hair trigger, i would prefer this to be activated by weight, but the timing would be more accurate and easier to adjust if the lever operating the latch only needed a soft touch, a weak spring may be needed for the latch, i doubt a spring would be needed on the catch.
theres more, this is only the basics and does not give away the build, the above are just simple mechanics.

there are other ways to perform the same task, the scissors would be a little more complicated to build, but much cheaper.

slowly im getting there, this is the easiest design so far.

[Fletcher]

Lifting Tongs - used in scrap yards & for lifting things like blocks of ice - as long as there is friction then the objects weight creates greater force.

[rotater]

correct fletcher,

many other ideas of the design are now falling in place.
will be a tricky build, many parts needed for each catch/latch, and much more.
strange, simple system, but a complicated build.

I am more than certain that this will be a runner.

I have an unusual feeling that soon, i will be kicking myself real hard, Why! i wont say !

[Tarsier79]

Below is a method I use to keep a single mech like this in line. Using the two opposed gears on the end keep it aligned, it is much less work(for me) than to make a slide with little resistance.

The other thing to note with storks bill mechanisms, (and I'm sure you are aware) is that it requires less force when it is applied at right angles to the levers, rather than in line with the crossover points when extending or retracting.

I assume you are trying to release the weight with a hair trigger? Unfortunately I have not had much experience with this, but you could try something like the second figure(modified from Fletchers post), namely a lever with a bearing on both ends, with upwards force, the weight will assist in its own release.

You could also add weights shown at the end of the extended levers, which should counter the weight being lifted, but this will probably cause more problems than it solves.

Cheers

[rotater]

tarsier, you think the same,
its what i meant when stating" there are other ways to perform the same task, the scissors would be a little more complicated to build, but much cheaper".

though i am a little unsure, as the arms would not be connected as in you pic, each gear would only need a pickup leg, as well as the levered weight, it is an easier design, but with the numerous number of gears needed would be very expensive. i don't have too much time or money.

would probably take a year to build, the catch arms are probably only half of the design.

its the same idea i decided to use when building an underwater wheel, the scissors arms were inefficient, only problem was the plastisc gears were very expensive at the hobby shop, so i shelved the idea.
besides i would need metal gears, needs to carry some weight which would probably be much more expensive, really needs to be a group build!

[daxwc]

Fletcher quote:

Lifting Tongs - used in scrap yards & for lifting things like blocks of ice - as long as there is friction then the objects weight creates greater force.

Yes, Fletcher there has been many arguments here in the past surrounding whether you can get static weight to do work. A mechanism that uses its own weight as a force “to climb�, that is not dynamic nor breaking any laws... I will gather things and start another thread.

tks