?

[to.late]

It is okay that most people in here do not like me.
You see, I have realized Bessler's wheel. And why haven't I built it yet ?
It is a very difficult build. I did buy the wood tody to start an all new build.
Something I am not happy about. After all, I would prefer to demonstrate a more finshed or advanced wheel. But I have no shop, basement or garage to work in.in the engineering of a his wheel.
It is complicated though. And for most, when they see a decent demonstration even if it does not work, will understand.
If I had the space for a steam box so I could warp boards, then I could build a much more suitable wheel. One that would demonstrate some of the nuances of Bessler's wheel. Such as, what was that sliding or rubbing sound people heard ? There is a way to account for that
And the best part, all of what I am doing can be shown in Bessler's drawings.
The clues help to prove it's his wheel and help to make things more interesting. Of course, those that say it can be patented as a new invention don't like me either.
By the way, not sure how long it will take me to build. I have to build a fixture for assembling pieces of the wheel. I will probably build that this weekend.
What I haven;t decided yet but believe I will do is not have a hub or an axle. His drawing of the wheel at Kassel shows no axle. It shows a winch in it's place. It sits on a stand that seems to have rollers.
Of course, with a hub, the weights would have something to fall against and make a knocking sound. And with 8 weights, that would be 8 knocking sounds per rotation.

[justsomeone]

There is no need for a steam box to warp the boards.

Buy some thin plywood and laminate them together with some fast setting glue in a curved jig. Clamp till dry.

[jim_mich]

It is okay that most people in here do not like me.
You see, I have realized Bessler's wheel. And why haven't I built it yet ?
It is a very difficult build. I did buy the wood tody to start an all new build.
Something I am not happy about. After all, I would prefer to demonstrate a more finshed or advanced wheel. But I have no shop, basement or garage to work in.in the engineering of a his wheel.
It is complicated though. And for most, when they see a decent demonstration even if it does not work, will understand.
If I had the space for a steam box so I could warp boards, then I could build a much more suitable wheel. One that would demonstrate some of the nuances of Bessler's wheel. Such as, what was that sliding or rubbing sound people heard ? There is a way to account for that
And the best part, all of what I am doing can be shown in Bessler's drawings.
The clues help to prove it's his wheel and help to make things more interesting. Of course, those that say it can be patented as a new invention don't like me either.
By the way, not sure how long it will take me to build. I have to build a fixture for assembling pieces of the wheel. I will probably build that this weekend.
What I haven;t decided yet but believe I will do is not have a hub or an axle. His drawing of the wheel at Kassel shows no axle. It shows a winch in it's place. It sits on a stand that seems to have rollers.
Of course, with a hub, the weights would have something to fall against and make a knocking sound. And with 8 weights, that would be 8 knocking sounds per rotation.

From hyperdictionary:

Definition of REALIZED:
[adj] successfully completed or brought to an end; "his mission accomplished he took a vacation"; "the completed project"; "the joy of a realized ambition overcame him"

Synonyms:accomplished, complete, completed, realised

So Mr. to.late, since you have not accomplished, build or completed your Bessler wheel project you have not yet realized Bessler's wheel. Thus your statement is false and you are a liar and a fraud. This is why your posts get moved into the fraud section and why your reputation deteriorates. Most people do not like arrogant liars.

[justsomeone]

Pmotion, Jim, now to.late, Have you figured out what your next username will be yet?

[to.late]

It is okay that most people in here do not like me.
You see, I have realized Bessler's wheel. And why haven't I built it yet ?
It is a very difficult build. I did buy the wood tody to start an all new build.
Something I am not happy about. After all, I would prefer to demonstrate a more finshed or advanced wheel. But I have no shop, basement or garage to work in.in the engineering of a his wheel.
It is complicated though. And for most, when they see a decent demonstration even if it does not work, will understand.
If I had the space for a steam box so I could warp boards, then I could build a much more suitable wheel. One that would demonstrate some of the nuances of Bessler's wheel. Such as, what was that sliding or rubbing sound people heard ? There is a way to account for that
And the best part, all of what I am doing can be shown in Bessler's drawings.
The clues help to prove it's his wheel and help to make things more interesting. Of course, those that say it can be patented as a new invention don't like me either.
By the way, not sure how long it will take me to build. I have to build a fixture for assembling pieces of the wheel. I will probably build that this weekend.
What I haven;t decided yet but believe I will do is not have a hub or an axle. His drawing of the wheel at Kassel shows no axle. It shows a winch in it's place. It sits on a stand that seems to have rollers.
Of course, with a hub, the weights would have something to fall against and make a knocking sound. And with 8 weights, that would be 8 knocking sounds per rotation.

From hyperdictionary:

Definition of REALIZED:
[adj] successfully completed or brought to an end; "his mission accomplished he took a vacation"; "the completed project"; "the joy of a realized ambition overcame him"

Synonyms:accomplished, complete, completed, realised

So Mr. to.late, since you have not accomplished, build or completed your Bessler wheel project you have not yet realized Bessler's wheel. Thus your statement is false and you are a liar and a fraud. This is why your posts get moved into the fraud section and why your reputation deteriorates. Most people do not like arrogant liars.

What I do wonder is this. In 2004, my mother died from rectal cancer.
When I saw doctors, they told me what you said. They said I was a drug addict.
They did a colonoscopy to prove their point. needless to say, I diagnosed my own cancer. To dte, I am still in pain. They ignored me when i said I had pain when I had an epidural in my back. Can you say malprctice ?
My employer has had at least 2 chances to terminate my employment.
My car was close to being repoed. I could have died from a post surgical infection. The first one, not the second one.
And yet, Iam still trying.
Again, why do peope have a problem with me ? I am one with no help from anyone any where.

So as you sy Jim_Mich, for working through severe hardship. I am a liar and a fraud ?
Your friends rlortie, Ab Hammer et al say the same thing.

The sd reality is I left a message with someone at the hospital that treated me and told them that since doctors consider me arrogant for thinking I might know what is happening withy my body, no need to see them any more.
After all, they did throw out family history as being something. Notr sure on that one. They quit talking to me. Could be once they found out they were belittling a patient, they couldn't deal with that fact.

editedto add; during my chemo and radiation therapy, I was constantly harassed. Was told cancer is common and is no excuse for being sick.
rlortie foolowed this poster. Often criticized me for not tolerating needless harassment.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topi ... #msg210921

reply 199

From what I have read, Jim suffered from an accented that left him brain damaged. The only reason I watch him is, he likes to say things that are untrue and I simply defend myself. He gets hung up with his math , and hangs on to it like a religion. Delusional sociopath? I hope not, or even talking to him would be dangerous.


Since when is using math a bad thing rlortie ? You always followed his posts and supported him.
And this wass while I was dealing with cancer and it's complicatiions.

Scott Ellis, this is what private build groups do. overtaker is a supporter of ralph's and Alan's. And he supports Bessler's wheel being patented per the link I provided.

[Ed]

I'm sure people sympathize with your medical situation, but what you should realize is that no amount of ideas in your head, drawings on paper, or simulations in a computer will pump water from the depths, transport you from A to B, or put electricity in your wires.

[to.late]

Hi Ed,
I have done builds as I've been able. I have shown different things on
youtube.
One of Bessler's clues is about a German's childs toy. I believe I have figured it out. I believe it is a cross section of Mt 24.
There is a lot of engineering in that drawing and it didn't make sense.
What is interesting to note is the relationship when the end of a lever moves. On Mt 24, the short lever as an example can move inward (towards the axle) 7 inches while having a radial shift of 3 1/2 inches. A weight move that much I don't think would create enough over balance to allow a wheel to work.
Also, if you consider the long levers, they're useless, dead weight. And if you look at Mt 20, they are in towards the axle. The weights actually come together at the axle as Besler described.
christo posted a quote by Bessler about the weights coming together and movig square to the axle. When a weight that is resting on the hub can drop down, it is basically moving square to the axle.
If this is right, then how can the force be transferred ina way that would allow for a contiuous stae of imbalance as Bessler described ?
Water seems to be the answer. If one lever moves from the hub downward, it would be pumping the water upward. And when this happens, it would also create a seal. And by a board being able to push down on another, the force pumping the water upward might be fairly constant.
And of course, as the wheel rotates, the weights on the levers would fall against the hub. If so, then they might make a knocking sound.
Anyway, as I can, I'll be working on it. But had to elave work early today because of problems. So not sure when I'll be able to do much.
Have figured out a fixture I can build to t to warp boards with. Have already tried plywood. Not sure how well it would hold it's shape. Am going to be trying 1/4 inch thick poplar. Might work better.

any typos are the result of being on a laptop and having the cursor jum, etc.
edited to correct radial

[Ed]

If it makes a design work then fine, but don't get hung up on warping boards just for the sake of satisfying clues.

The "warped boards" translation is wrong - I couldn't find anything that meant warped in the original handwritten letter. Here's my translation (the words between the two ~ symbols were crossed out):

"... In fact in the periphery [of the wheel] here and there small 'normal' beams were attached, which on rotation of the wheel ~it was evident~ were quite clearly perceived to be hit by weights. I have noticed those small beams [while] looking through a crack, although from a distance. ..."

The small beams are described as 'normal' which I think means at right-angles to the tangent of the wheel rather than meaning 'usual'. For more details read the following two posts of mine...
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 1635#51635
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 3533#63533

[to.late]

Hi Ed,
I think the translation is quite accurate. Going by the design of what I am building, the little beams will help the warped boards to keep their curve.
And also, they will allow one board to push against another allowing the weights to work together.
I think this is where he referenced the Fibonacci sequence. For those not familiar with it, 0. 1, 1 , 2, 3, 5, 8 ..... or 0 +1 = 1, 1 + 1 = 2, 2 + 3 = 5,...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_number
As the numbers are added in the sequence, so to do the weights work together.
I think Bessler might have been into math somewhat.

[jim_mich]

So as you sy Jim_Mich, for working through severe hardship. I am a liar and a fraud ?

I did not say a single word about hardship. This is just one reason why you offend people, for you have this very bad habit of making false statements.

By your own words you prove yourself a liar:

You see, I have realized Bessler's wheel. And why haven't I built it yet ?

I think the translation is quite accurate. Going by the design of what I am building, the little beams will help the warped boards to keep their curve.

Stewart's translation is more accurate. He has shown that the 'warped boards' statement is wrong. But of course you love false statements.

I think this is where he referenced the Fibonacci sequence.
- snip -
As the numbers are added in the sequence, so to do the weights work together.

Is this just another false statement from your imagination? Where does Bessler reference the Fibonacci sequence?

[to.late]

Jim,
I am wrong about the Fibonacci sequence. The moderator at overunity.com asked if he might have used.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9109
Maybe Alexioco does have some good insights. When christo mentioned the weights coming together, Alexico mentioned the axle as being the only place that could happen.
I'm not sure if they knew it or not, but Mt 20 is one of 3 drawings my work is based on.

>>Stewart's translation is more accurate. He has shown that the 'warped boards' statement is wrong. But of course you love false statements. <<
A couple of guys in here said the translation was short board or plank to be precise. I don't think someone having it technically right means anything unless they know the engineering it applies to. It could be that Bessler used a play on words as it describes more than one context boards were used.
And a real world visual example of how it can work in a real wheel, not one built on words that lead to nothing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh66g_I4Az4

And last but not least
>>By your own words you prove yourself a liar:

to.late, aka P-Motion, aka Jim Lindgaard wrote:
You see, I have realized Bessler's wheel. And why haven't I built it yet ? <<

How have I proved myself a liar ? Because dealing with a severe medical condition like cancer and it's related medical problems has not allowed me to do what I would like ? Or how about having no place to work like a shop, garage or basement ?
Of course, for people better off than myself, I can see where they would like to criticize me. They have little to show but fat wallets and their businesses.
Maybe laying in a hospital bed for up to a month at a time gave me time ti think when I wasn't to busy being sick.
Nah, they had cable :-) I watched my fair share of television. And besides, it is difficult to work out specific construction details not actually being able to try different things.

edited to correct spelling
edited to add;, would not wish to offend the 2 guys who I discussed the warped board translation with. As I told them, their varying transllation as to what it might mean helped to convince me on what I was working. It is nice being able to discuss things and consider them differently.
The only person that would know the actual intent of the description is Bessler. Everything else is based on belief.

[Ed]

It could be that Bessler used a play on words as it describes more than one context boards were used.

How can you know if Bessler used a play on words if you don't care about using an accurate translation of his words in the first place?

Besides those supposed words aren't Bessler's, they are Wolff's.

[to.late]

Ed,
When someone says it was proven, how much can they care ?
What is more telling than the translation is found in Besler's drawings.
His written record will help to confirm it is his wheel. but if a precise translation is required, then I doubt it could be proven to be his wheel. Such are lawyers.
For the most part, I have worked from his drawings. An example of this is the Wheel at Kassel. Isn't that an interesting picture / drawing ?
Anyway,I think so. I have heard one clue is that 2 drawings were needed. Unfortunately, due to missing over 6 months of work in one year, I could not afford to buy the book :-(
If it does take 2 drawings as I'e heard, the Wheel at Kasel is 2 drawings in one. Kind of odd or a clue ? He is supposed to have built a lift also. And the drawing shows a winch in one panel and a wheel with a pendulum in front of it in the other panel.
My early work was based on the wheel and the pendulum. The approximate angles are 22.5 degrees and 45 degrees for the weight on the pendulum. It depends what you use for a referrence, the fulcrum or the axle of the wheel.
And 22.5 is 1/2 of 45. And intersting aspect. Was he trying to suggest looking at things one way is only half of it ? After all, his name in code is orffyre, for a religious man, something to avoid.
But in staying with engineering, by considering one drawing and then conparing it to another, something can be learned of what Bessler knew.
It is like some wheels I did build, while they are different than Mt 4, they are basically the same. With Mt 4, 6 weights are useless.
And what can be learned by building such a wheel ? About how torque and/or acceleration effect a gravity powered wheel. Something that is important to understand.
I also built Mt 36 and partial builds of Mt's 24 & 25. I have heard they're proven non runners and it is a waste of time to build Bessler's drawings.
And this is why I am building what I am building. According to people that have a high opinion of their own thoughts, I have been wasting my time.
And a link to a video showing whaqt I have to work with. I guess if you know what you're doing, it really doesn't take much. And what does help is being able to discuss things without them being prove it, or do you have a working wheel yet or other such comments from people who can not follow the discussions or have no work of their own to show.
There are some of us who like to see a Bessler wheel built and Bessler get credit for it !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltHTASgl40w

[to.late]

@All,
I'll probably getting the new fixture built for warping boards this weekend. Then I'll be able to start waqrping boards. That will take some time.
But as you guys can see, that what was written hundreds of years ago can be taken so differently.
Even though Bessler did not use the Fibonacci sequence, it does show how to things that seem independent can work together. And in the drawings, 4 are grouped together. One of which is the German's child's toy which is supposed to be a clue along with scissors which is supposed to be another one.
And beside them is whaqt could be something similar to a chain. And in it's linking could be the "how" in how the weights work together.
And something someone (Alexioco) consider has lead to this possibility.
Why is this important ? Because it was said that "weights worked together". And in this design, it might not be considered that the weights are working together. It is found in a nit picky detail that they do. If the moveable warped board had a smaller radius than the fixed warped board, then the upperweight would be trying to lift the lower weight and would be less liekly to work. The details are in the engineering.
It could be as Bessler said, he saw something in nature. Whatt was not said is when he saw it. He I have read built many wheels. He could have tried weights only and found nothing that worked. And then one day, he might have been around a water wheel, they had many uses. Not sure if they had pumps at that time, don't thnk so. But he might have thought, if only the water could be pumped upwards. If so, that could be what lead him to pursue a self perpetuating water wheel.
But this is Labor Day weekend and I do have a few things to get started on. Of course, I also need to take it easy and get some rest.
So in time, some of you guys might think tis is somehtng that would work. But with what I am building, i want it to be something that will be a good reflection on myself and those who have helped.

[Ed]

What is more telling than the translation is found in Besler's drawings.

What you don't seem to realize is that, unless you can read hand-written old German, you have to rely on someone translating the text for you. I should think you would want an accurate translation. If not, then it seems you are trying to force the "clues" to line up with your thoughts.

As for your YouTube video, people don't have a problem with your workshop being your dresser, then have a problem with you starting this thread saying you have realized Bessler's wheel. Can't you see that?

Anyone, not just you, coming into the forum claiming to have a working device better be able to start showing something soon after, or else they are just blowing smoke and people won't stand for it, because it effects them too. Everyone who makes a claim and then never proves it just further tarnishes this field.