Vertical axis gravitywheel?

[John Collins]

The sale of the windmill and fact of its having been designed to have a vertical axis, reminded me of some speculation I indulged in a few years ago about the possibility of designing a gravitywheel with a vertical axis. We are all aware of Savonius windmills which operate in the wind, and work similarly to Bessler's windmill design in that they share the principle of a vertical axis. I described it in some detail in my biography about Bessler. Is such a design plausible for use in water? I ignore waterwheels etc, because they are not totally submerged and the principle which drives them differs.

I wondered if there were any practical solutions involving vertical axes water turbines. At the time I was looking for such a device I was unable to find one, however it seems that there are a few out there, although you have to ignore those which are driven by jets of water as they are no different in principle to the old water wheel, even though fully submerged. The ones which are designed derive their thrust in the same way that a Savonius windmill does, suffer from the greater viscosity of water and therefore tend to turn extremely slowly. Copying from Wikipedia "..the less viscous the fluid is, the greater its ease of movement (fluidity)."

This water-and-wind vertical axis turbine has an interesting feature, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NTbAz9GyHw - moveable
air/water vanes to take best advantage of the medium. Not a million miles from moving weights to take advantage of gravity. It would seem that my original argument that gravity can operate on a device as wind does and water too, maybe tempered by the fact that increased viscosity may render it impractical, but the argument itself holds good. So the principle that vertical axes still can support rotation whether driven by wind or water can also apply to gravity. I'm not suggesting that Bessler did it this way but merely that it might be worth looking into as a possible way of obtaining more power?

The only "solution" for a vertical axis gravitywheel I've come up with so far is to have several pairs of horizontal gravitywheels mounted around the outer edge of the vertical axis connected by transmission shafts to the central axis Now all we have to do is work out how to get them to move under gravity!

JC

[pstroud]

John,

I believe verticle axis gravity wheels are possible. My current focus (again) and my focus a year ago was on a vertical axis gravity wheel called the Mann Gravity Mover, invented by Gurbakhsh Singh Mann of India.

Here are links with info if you are interested:

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... vity+mover

http://gurbakhshsinghmannglobalenergy.com/biz/index.htm

Preston

[Fletcher]

This water-and-wind vertical axis turbine has an interesting feature, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NTbAz9GyHw - moveable
air/water vanes to take best advantage of the medium.
JC

John .. I looked at the video - what was the control mech for the turbine blades ? - I couldn't see how they were able to move - there didn't appear to be a gear or cam & if it were Cf's then you'd expect them to all get flung out ? - perhaps he just had a bungy cord ? - do you know how he is achieving the controlled movement ?

[DrWhat]

I'd still like to know how the blades were configured on Bessler's windmill. Does anyone have any idea?

[AB Hammer]

Fletcher

The blades are free floating off a single pivot, but restricted for they have to have stops. I have played with this idea before and there is a lot you can do with it. It can work vertical as well as horizontal or at any angle. I am not sure if it is patentable due to so many items similar to it that has been done in the past. Patent pending doesn't mean full patent.

Alan

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi Fletcher,

The blade are held at a cutting angle as they cut through the air with there forward motion, and when the wind hit’s the blade they are forced to open exposing them to more impact force of the wind, using more of the blades area to catch the winds impact force and gaining some leverage as well, as Alan suggested it is the pivot position and stops that makes it work well.

Regards Trevor

Edit, 2 missed words

[Tarsier79]

Another invention that was invented 300 years ago. Patenting requires the idea to be novel/unique. This is neither.

[Fletcher]

Thanks guys - I thought they must be free pivoting rather than following a cam etc so that they could catch the wind from any direction - the cam would be at one position & you'd have to re-orientate the turbine every time the wind changed - that wouldn't be too hard by having a tail & lock mechanism.

What threw me was that I had thought perhaps the blades were aerodynamic but it doesn't appear so on reflection [couldn't see much on my laptop] - the blades take the path of least resistance even against Cf's which means they fold inwards so there is less drag - at a certain position they get caught by the wind & flap over & then push the mill around just like a big square sail on a sailing boat sailing downwind - not particularly efficient imo compared to aerodynamic blades if that is correct but ultimately simple & probably reliable.

Tarsier .. yes, those seem of the same principle, water screws, turbines & paddles, even free pivoted paddles - for Dr What's benefit perhaps that's how Bessler was going to construct his vertical axis windmill & blades also i.e. simple free pivoting.

I can see why the guy likes them as water turbines - not a lot of mechanical parts to go wrong except for seaweed getting stuck on the blades.

I'm interested because I have a mind to build a vertical wind turbine one day, especially over here where mains power can drop out on you & is relatively expensive, plus I have access to sea tides to play with which could be fun.

[John Collins]

Interesting (or depressing!), Tarsier, that someone had the same idea three hundred years ago, and that probably wasn't original then. I guess most of what we are doing has been tested numerous times in the past.

JC

[greendoor]

Here is a half-baked idea regarding a horizontal wheel for what it's worth ...

Imagine a spiral staircase. Imagine it is bearing mounted on a vertical shaft. Now imagine that we drop a weight down the stairs, so that it rolls and bumps over each step as it takes it's time falling down the stairs.

The idea I had was that - due to Newtons 3rd law - the stair case would accelerate and revolve, reaching maximum momentum when the weight reaches the bottom.

I haven't crunched any numbers, but my basic thinking is that any successful gravity wheel will take stress off the Earth, and the Force of gravity (which is constant) is diverted into Accelerating a mass system, rather than Straining a mass system.

For the Time that the weight is falling downstairs, we have a Force available for causing Acceleration. Normally, we don't allow Acceleration (i.e. most staircases are rigidly fixed to the ground).

This (to my mind) is a variation of the Pequaide/Atwood principle of prolonging Force x Time to generate variable, large amounts of Momentum from a specific mass falling a specific height. The longer we can prolong the fall, the more Momentum we can get at the end.

The question remains whether the Momentum can be used to winch the mass back up again. There is actually no question that the momentum CAN be used, and no question that variable amounts of Momentum will winch the mass up variable heights ... the question is whether there is a breakeven point where the Momentum gained is more than the Momentum required ...

[Fletcher]

In a nut shell - it should work, at least to spin the stair case / turbine / screw providing the step had a slight slope [normal forces] - a fixed vertical stair case would slow the rate of fall for sure - a stair case on an axle might allow the drive mass to actually fall quicker than its stationary counterpart as it has less horizontal distance to roll each step as the stair case moves under it ?

If we take away the rolling drive mass & replace it with water & a screw then the falling water should turn the screw - add pockets to temporarily arrest the fall & you should get more rpm in your turbine & slower rate of fall.

Then have the screw connected to another turbine to lift water back up to the starting height and ..... ?

Looks like a work done problem rather than the rate of fall of the driving medium ?

Has shades of 'uncles toy' ?

[Tarsier79]

I think Fletcher is right, the Leopold design is a water wheel, but could just as easily be used as a windmill. I don't know if it the same people, but I saw a similar one on you-tube mounted to a car that also didn't look too efficient.

any successful gravity wheel will take stress off the Earth

I'm not so sure, if it is taking stress of the earth, it would have to push up against something, if that wasn't the earth then it would have to push up against the air.

Horizontal wheels solve some rotational problems faced by vertical wheels, but it still leaves the biggest hurdle no-one here has managed to solve yet. Using gravity,weight has to fall... to reset, you have to pick that weight back up again. Once you solve this problem, you will be able to design vertical and horizontal gravity wheels.

Cheers

Kaine

[path_finder]

An earlier thread on the same subject:
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 7117#67117
See in particular the latest video published in the 'films' section (with the pneumatic feedback servo).

edited:
Sorry. It is in the 'story' section.

[pequaide]

Both horizontal and vertical wheels are accelerated in an F = ma manner. Therefore they store a Ft or mv quantity of motion (F = m v/t). It is what you do with the motion that counts.

I have even made motion transfers from the linear motion of a sled moving along a track. Sleds on tracks, and horizontal and vertical wheels, all store momentum that can be transfer to the linear motion of another smaller object.

I now throw (the smaller mass) with what is obviously an Atwood's Machine. I will try to post a picture within a few days.

[bluesgtr44]

Very nicely done! I'm not sure as to the accuracy of his results in this situation but I sure like the approach. Putting the device at the front of the boat and driving it forward thus using that impetus to drive the water turbine creating the simulation of the gulf currents.

I'm not really sure about the accuracy of the results but even if they are close this would be a pretty good thing. Now, how to utilize them.....


Steve