And possibly not even then.Only when Bessler's Principle is fully known and proven will his original words all fall into place and their full and subtle meanings be known.
Red Herring clues
Moderator: scott
re: Red Herring clues
IMO the term 'Red Herring' and 'clue' are contradictory and should not be used in the same sentence or title.
Red herring by definition is something that draws attention away from the central issue.
A clue is something that guides or directs in the solution of a problem or mystery.
In Bessler's writings, a misinterpretation of a red herring by some with influence could have cost him his head had it been sold and the secret revealed.
Ralph
Red herring by definition is something that draws attention away from the central issue.
A clue is something that guides or directs in the solution of a problem or mystery.
In Bessler's writings, a misinterpretation of a red herring by some with influence could have cost him his head had it been sold and the secret revealed.
Ralph
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getterdone
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re: Red Herring clues
I don't think that anyone with the kind of money required to buy the wheel back then would 've had to make Besslers death look like an accident. If he would've been discovered to be a fraud , they would've exicuted him in the public square, to make an example of him.
Beer is the cause and the solution of all my problems.
re: Red Herring clues
Yes Jim, but if only true and false could be separated so easily :)
According to Wagner, Bessler defined perpetual motion and intrinsic motion as the exact same thing.
According to Wagner, Bessler defined perpetual motion and intrinsic motion as the exact same thing.
re: Red Herring clues
Yes, Wagner was willing to admit that Bessler's wheel was an intrinsic motion machine but Wagner denied that it was a true PM machine, for Wagner thought that PM was impossible. According to Wagner, Bessler's wheel gained its force from within and thus Wagner considered the source of this force as being intrinsic, which means from within.
The meaning of the word 'intrinsic', as it relates to a PM wheel, is not clear. Bessler used intrinsic to describe his machine. If you think about it, a real true PM machine gains its force from within, and thus its force is intrinsic, as Bessler stated. Wagner criticized Bessler for describing his machine as intrinsic, for Wagner considered intrinsic to mean wound-up.
The meaning of the word 'intrinsic', as it relates to a PM wheel, is not clear. Bessler used intrinsic to describe his machine. If you think about it, a real true PM machine gains its force from within, and thus its force is intrinsic, as Bessler stated. Wagner criticized Bessler for describing his machine as intrinsic, for Wagner considered intrinsic to mean wound-up.
Webster wrote: INTRINSIC
Inward; internal; hence, true; genuine; real; essential; inherent; not merely apparent or accidental
re: Red Herring clues
Wagner's conversation with Bessler left him suspicious about how Bessler was defining 'true perpetual motion'. IMO, Wagner expected that when Bessler finally showed inside the wheel he would see an immediately recognizable mechanism and energy source. That view seems in keeping with Karl's statements about how Bessler's machine was simple and surprisingly obvious. I guess Wagner wasn't creative enough to think beyond wind-up springs, even if his suspicions might have been well founded.
re: Red Herring clues
It would seem that Bessler had a more fundamental meaning of 'intrinsic motion' [machine] than Wagner - yet he would not be drawn into it further it seems, which I've always viewed as more than curious, to say the least.
Bessler was the one person well able to ring fence a sensible description & frame a good debate about perpetual motion v's intrinsic motion to the layman & scientific world at large, because he had been there, seen the difference firsthand & could admirably explain it if he chose too - yet to have debated publicly with Wagner would have forced him to defend himself & his views thus potentially cornering & trapping him unwittingly.
So Bessler chose to not describe it to a knowledgable Wagner as a PM machine but as 'Intrinsic Motion' Machine [because he agreed with the scientific view of the impossibility of PM ?] - yet he also disagreed with what Wagner perhaps thought the definition of intrinsic meant e.g. wind up, 'at the ready' potential etc - clearly there was some force enabling the continuous rotation of his machines & by his own words it wasn't wind-up etc, thereby disagreeing with Wagner's interpretation of the meaning.
That leaves Besslers interpretation of the meaning of intrinsic as something else i.e. a force from within but not generated from 'at the ready' potential but by infused potential [i.e. mechanically established ambient gradient] or by the mechanical dynamics of motion.
Since Bessler said his weights gained force from their own swinging/motion then one might reasonably assume that the answer to Bessler's interpretation of Intrinsic Motion contained elements of both possibilities i.e. an established gradient perhaps after dynamic motion occurs, to create an engine to do work.
EDIT : A mechanically generated gradient provides a pathway to extract energy potential to do work providing the gradient is maintained, doesn't diminish significantly & is replenished repeatably - the ruling scientific doctrine of thermodynamics says that Energy Out can be greater than Energy In, so as to be described as a PM machine, IM machine or FE engine, if Energy enters into a closed system.
Bessler was the one person well able to ring fence a sensible description & frame a good debate about perpetual motion v's intrinsic motion to the layman & scientific world at large, because he had been there, seen the difference firsthand & could admirably explain it if he chose too - yet to have debated publicly with Wagner would have forced him to defend himself & his views thus potentially cornering & trapping him unwittingly.
So Bessler chose to not describe it to a knowledgable Wagner as a PM machine but as 'Intrinsic Motion' Machine [because he agreed with the scientific view of the impossibility of PM ?] - yet he also disagreed with what Wagner perhaps thought the definition of intrinsic meant e.g. wind up, 'at the ready' potential etc - clearly there was some force enabling the continuous rotation of his machines & by his own words it wasn't wind-up etc, thereby disagreeing with Wagner's interpretation of the meaning.
That leaves Besslers interpretation of the meaning of intrinsic as something else i.e. a force from within but not generated from 'at the ready' potential but by infused potential [i.e. mechanically established ambient gradient] or by the mechanical dynamics of motion.
Since Bessler said his weights gained force from their own swinging/motion then one might reasonably assume that the answer to Bessler's interpretation of Intrinsic Motion contained elements of both possibilities i.e. an established gradient perhaps after dynamic motion occurs, to create an engine to do work.
EDIT : A mechanically generated gradient provides a pathway to extract energy potential to do work providing the gradient is maintained, doesn't diminish significantly & is replenished repeatably - the ruling scientific doctrine of thermodynamics says that Energy Out can be greater than Energy In, so as to be described as a PM machine, IM machine or FE engine, if Energy enters into a closed system.