Bessler Co-operative?

[Stewart]

I posted the following under another topic but thought it would be interesting to have poll on the subject so have started a new topic:

I think this board is an amazing and exciting place to be and we all have something to offer in solving this puzzle. I like the recent "Bessler's riddle explained" topic with Verge and Jonathan's fervent exchange of ideas - it's what this board is all about. With our combined input I know we will solve Bessler's clues and build a working wheel in the not too distant future (not necessarily in that order!).

As far as rights to ownership of an idea is concerned, I think this is an issue for some people. I do get the impression that most members here feel, as I do, that it doesn't matter who invents the wheel, but just that it gets invented and is made available to as many people in the world as possible. To this end I think we should start a members only forum for those people who wish to participate in a joint venture to re-invent the Bessler Wheel and bring it to public attention. To join the group you would have to agree that by posting you gave up your individual rights to an idea and that it would then belong to the "Bessler Co-operative" as a whole. Once we have a solution and have all verified it then we can arrange demonstrations all over the world. Each member would then be a representative for the group (if they wish) and would be free to demonstrate the working wheel in public. Looking at this board's memberlist we already have most of the world covered! I guess what I'm suggesting is a more organised group working more closely together, sharing all information and offering their skills whenever possible. It sounds like Scott almost has the members only forum facility ready - so what do you all think?

All the best
Stewart

[VergingOnDone]

Sure count me in for a very noble cause, but how would you protect the results from bottom feeders going off to a patent office? Could it be arranged that as a cooperative it is rights protected? Just a thought. And if there actually is a working wheel could the rights be used to benefit the contributers in this co-op?

[Stewart]

Hi Verge

These are the sorts of issues we would need to work out. I think we would need to protect the rights of the co-operative with a patent if that is possible, just to prevent anyone else from exploiting or suppressing the idea. The idea of course is to release the wheel to the world for free - any member of the general public would be allowed to build their own wheel. The group could of course manufacture and sell wheels should we wish to make some money from the venture.

All the best
Stewart

[jim_mich]

Many years ago I worked as a draftsman. The company had me sign a legal document stating ANY ideas I might have would belong to the company. This irritated me, knowing my dad was an inventor and I was always thinking up ideas and might follow in my dad's footsteps. I'm currently working on a number of ideas, some totally unrelated to energy. Where would you draw the line? And if a workable device were found, would all members be required to come up with their share of close to $20,000 US dollars needed for an international patent? What if an inspiration where to suddenly come to an individual and he left the group to develop it himself? And what about someone who joins the day before the BIG breakthrough? Or someone who helps from the very beginning gets burnt out and leaves the day before the BIG breakthrough? I see only problems and little benefits.

I think helping each other is great. Help each other see why their ideas are good or why they might not work. At all times be respectful! But a co-operative is asking for trouble. I've been in co-operatives before. We had a group that got together once a month to order bulk food, which we then divided up a week later after picking it up from the warehouse. A small number of individuals did most of the work. And the secretary embezzled a lot of our money.

I believe it is a noble cause but I must vote no. I think you are asking for a lot of trouble. Just my opinion.

[Stewart]

Hi Jim

You're right - it could be complicated, but it doesn't have to be. Maybe co-operative is the wrong word to use, but I think you get the general idea of what I'm suggesting. As far as ownership of ideas is concerned, only ideas posted would belong to the group - if you don't post it, it's still yours. If someone left the group and then developed an idea based on the groups ideas, it would be easy to prove this as the board would contain the evidence. As there is nothing monetary to gain, I can't see a problem with someone joining or leaving the group at any time. For the same reason I can't see a problem with the amount of input/work done. If one person only posts a few ideas and does nothing else, thats fine. I'd like to think that members will be real enthusiasts and would want to put in as much effort as they can. As far as a patent is concerned - if it's needed then it would be easier for say 100 people to find $200 than for 1 person to find $20,000.

All the best
Stewart

[Jonathan]

I'm voting yes for now. I think that at some point a thread should be started where all who want to join such group will come together to disscuss how it would be organised and iron out various wrinkles, kinda like a virtual convention to gradually draft the Co-op Constitution. When everyone, or sufficiently many people, are happy, then the Co-op would actually begin. It won't be like the paper Jim_mich had to sign, where he'd probably loose his job if he didn't sign it, the only ill effect on someone who doesn't join is not getting to hear the ideas there.

[Nitro]

I have been in a partnership before, And it cost me dearly.
I don't think a group of this type would be able to offer much protection as for IP.
Unless you had a large entity to offer protection, The patent code is full of loopholes, With out solid support in this area all members would get burned.
But one advantage that I do see is that large groups come with credibility.

[Stewart]

Patenting the device would no doubt be fraught with problems. I was lookng at the UK patent office website and the defination of a patent (look at this page http://www.patent.gov.uk/patent/definition.htm). It says that the following condition, among others, must be met to be able to patent an invention:

Be capable of industrial application
An invention must be capable of being made or used in some kind of industry. This means that the invention must take the practical form of an apparatus or device, a product such as some new material or substance or an industrial process or method of operation.

"Industry" is meant in its broadest sense as anything distinct from purely intellectual or aesthetic activity. It does not necessarily imply the use of a machine or the manufacture of an article. Agriculture is included.

Articles or processes alleged to operate in a manner clearly contrary to well-established physical laws, such as perpetual motion machines, are regarded as not having industrial application.

Does this mean that you wouldn't be able to patent the device here, even if you can prove it works? The US patent office says this:

A working model, or other physical exhibit, may be required by the Office if deemed necessary. This is not done very often. A working model may be requested in the case of applications for patent for alleged perpetual motion devices.

..which seems reasonable and would suggest you can patent it if you can prove it works.

Can anyone explain why the UK patent office would have such a clause?

I'm inclined to think that patenting is a not a good idea for such a device anyway.

I think a co-ordinated worldwide publicity campaign would be the only way to do it. This would avoid any chance of suppression by governments. With a large group of us acting as one organisation that is promoting it worldwide, we can hopefully prevent anyone being able to patent the idea. The most important thing is to make sure (if possible) that nobody can restrict other people's freedom to build and use the device. Would governments ban the building and use of such a device to prevent an economic disaster I wonder? I guess we just need to get the idea out to the world and see what happens.

All the best
Stewart

[Jonathan]

I think a co-ordinated worldwide publicity campaign would be the only way to do it. This would avoid any chance of suppression by governments. With a large group of us acting as one organisation that is promoting it worldwide, we can hopefully prevent anyone being able to patent the idea.

It's probably not worth worrying about a patent anyway as governments will no doubt ban the building and use of such a device anyway, to prevent an economic disaster. :(

As to the first paragraph, I agree. And this endevor would be much helped if we insisted not to be given any investment money.
As to the second, that makes me mad, because I know that is exactly what they'd do. But if any of them really understood what an economy is and how it works, they'd see that an economic disaster is not a bad thing. WHAT? My reasoning is that the only reason there'd be an almost complete collapse of economies is because no one would need it any more. Of course it wouldn't disappear entirely, but it would be greatly reduced. But if a gov't did the right thing and distributed these devices and temporarily banned their use, just until all those with threatened jobs could get their finances ready, then allow them, then there'd be no harm done.

[Stewart]

Whoops, I re-phrased the last paragraph but you responded so quickly Jonathan that now your quote doesn't match!

I also think that the economic change that this device would bring wouldn't be a bad thing, but I'm not sure everyone would share this view. I know I would prefer a life where all my energy requirements were provided for free and I could live a self-sustained lifesytle. I know I wouldn't miss being able to buy certain material posessions for an indefinate period of time. I know I would survive and be happy, but how many others would? This device would cause a big change in the world - are we ready for it? I think I'll start a separate topic for this issue and run a poll.

All the best
Stewart

[jim_mich]

The 'PLAN'...

A] First get something that works!!!

B] Take steps to insure the idea survives in case of calamity.

C] Define the principle or the reason why it works!

D] Design a simple cheap working POP (proof of principle) sample model.

F] Build as many of these models as money/time/reasoning suggest.

G] Plan Ad campaign, including literature, web space, documentation, etc.

H] Write patent applications for most major countries.

I] Prepare a list of names, addresses of who is to receive what.

J] Always continue research into increasing power output and alternate designs.

K] When all is prepared, file patents, upload web site, mail plans, ship models, etc. Hit the media hard! Make a sensation! Be on the evening news worldwide.

Just my humble opinion.

[MrTim]

L] Load up on Liability insurance.
If you make something that works, even if you give it away free and clear, somebody somewhere will 'manage' to get injured by it. It won't matter if they were totally at fault, they will come after you because YOU invented it. And if you are part of a group, all of you will be liable.
I don't mean to put a chill on your efforts, but this is something you shouldn't overlook (no matter how noble your intentions.)

[Jonathan]

MrTim's right, that didn't even occur to me as I read Jim_mich's post. Stupid frivolous lawsuits...

[Nitro]

Oh

And don't forget the life ins. Some people may get capped :)

[grim]

M) Make everyone associated with it, including consumers, sign a "terrible oath".