Bessler's 'Perpetual Fountain'

[BZ]

In 1738 Bessler announced the invention of a "perpetual water fountain".


http://www.orffyre.com/cronology.html


Any drawings to this?

[ovyyus]

Not that I know of.

I have to fix the spelling of that page!

PS: On what basis have you come to the conclusion, "I've concluded Bessler was a fraud but I'm open to the .0001% possibility that he achieved some type of resonance or unknown momentum phenomena."

[John Collins]

BZ asks are there any drawings of the perpetual water fountains - no, he was discussing possible uses for his machine and a perpetual fountain set in beautiful gardens for the pleasure of gentlefolk was one of his suggestions. No drawings of this survive,

John Collins

[BZ]

PS: On what basis have you come to the conclusion, "I've concluded Bessler was a fraud"

I tend to agree with the forth post in this thread....here:

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=337&

Bessler the clockmaker and Maid accomplice explanation makes most sense. (Skilled clockmakers claimed they could make a Bessler type wheel turn for one year without winding.)

Also one can come to the conclusion from 3 other areas.

1. Historical
2. Psychological
3. Scientific


1. Early 1700's were times of tremendous and unprecedented greed. (large Business booms, South Sea Bubble etc.) I think Besslers extreme addiction to accomplishing PM made his life unstable and was a classic case of a man ruined by greed. Besslers books were an encompassing attempt to cover "every base" so he could one day post-claim to be the "first", in the case he would eventually solve PM, but he never did.

2. Bessler is a classic free energy "neptunian" personality. (Intelligent but addicted, semi-delusional, greedy etc...) Besslers behaviour is very similar to inventor Harry Perrigo. Perrigo was caught faking it and also went into a juvenile shouting rage when challenged...

http://www.rexresearch.com/perrigo/perrig~1.htm

3. I dont believe in closed system PM. Perpetual Motion must have an identifiable source of overunity. i.e. Radiant energy, ZPE, Magnetism, etc.

Also Bessler claimed his wheel was "simple". If it were that simple, wouldn't at least 1 other person in the history of all humankind discovered just one partial clue to this simple phenomena? How many humans have been on earth. 80-100 billion? and Bessler was the ONLY one chosen by god? I dont buy it. Just more Bessler neptunian delusion.

[John Collins]

My first reaction was "Not again - I can't face reiterating the old arguments", but then I remembered that not everyone has heard them.

Bessler the clockmaker and Maid accomplice explanation makes most sense Skilled clockmakers claimed they could make a Bessler type wheel turn for one year without winding.)

Just because they claim it doesn't make it so. Where are these clocks that would run for a year in 1712? Where are the same clocks that could also raise a weight of 70 LBS? Where are these clocks that can run in either direction? I should say clock not clocks, because all of this must be achieved by the same clock.

The maid was found out as a fraud. Karl the Landgrave made it a condition of patronage that he was allowed to see the internal workings and he declared the machine genuine. If you want to cast aspersions on Karl's character I must recommend you read my book where I detail the arguments for believing in Karl and Bessler.

I agree with point 1, but that doesn't prove Bessler was a fraud.

I partially agree with point 2, but just because aspects of someone's character appears to be similar to someone else's does not necessarily mean that they are both frauds. I myself have been likened to Bessler but I can assure you I'm not a fraud.

I agree with point 3, I too do not believe in closed systems. Yes PM must have an identifiable source. It does and it's gravity and it is therefore not a closed system. This is something I have been arguing about since my book first appeared in 1997.

Yes Bessler claimed his wheel was simple and I see no reason why he should not have been the first person on earth to discover the secret. We have seen nothing but "firsts" over the last two or three hundred years haven't we? Steam power, electric power, nuclear power, solar power. Someone has to be first - why not Bessler?

In fact I argued in my book that such a device might have been discovered before. There are a number of potential candidates for such a claim and I don't want to go into it here.


John Collins

[Jonathan]

>Bessler the clockmaker and Maid accomplice explanation makes most sense. (Skilled clockmakers claimed they could make a Bessler type wheel turn for one year without winding.)
There is proof at John's website that the maid explaination is no good, that no material could be made to drive the device from without (excluding the ridiculously unavailable of course). I could extend the proof to my papers for the various required torques to power the wheels of different loads if you like. I have personally worked on clocks, and in fact would have no trouble making one from scratch. There are purely mechanical clocks available today that are doubtless essentially the same as the ones that the clockmakers refered to back then as 'can work for a year', and these clocks are called anniversary clocks. I have worked on those, and they are enclosed in glass cases, because even the tiniest bit of dust can stop them.
I believe that Bessler wasn't a fraud because that is what the evidence points to. If any of you can think of a way to pneumatically power a wheel so that Karl wouldn't be suspicious of the tanks and so that no onlooker would notice the noise, I'd like to hear it, because it looks as if that is the only reasonable method of fraud.

[ovyyus]

BZ, I agree with both John and Jonathan on this. There is no evidence that Bessler was a fraud other than the discounted accusation from his maid and the various activities of his enemies.

Actually I think on balance the evidence tends to sway in Bessler's favour, not because of what he said or wrote but because of his demonstrations. There is little doubt that his demonstrations were as described and recorded by the various witnesses and examiners of the time. The demonstrations were impressive.

Bessler's enemies tried very hard to discredit his wheels but the simple fact remains that none of them could step forward and prove their accusations with a demonstration of their own. The same could be said of the nay-sayers today.

It's just not useful believing Bessler was a fraud without any good reason. That proves nothing. I think you must be able to replicate his demonstrations to prove your case. At the very least I think a valid theoretical solution should be put forward. It's a very difficult problem and sometimes it is tempting to simply discount it all as fraud. But that won't do.

My position with the Bessler mystery is that it remains for the present exactly that - a mystery! I want to see it resolved as much as anyone and I'm quite open and prepared to accept any working solution - whether fraud, thermal, PM, whatever - if it can be DEMONSTRATED to replicate Bessler's wheel's.

This mystery can only be resolved with working hardware. Whatever that hardware is and how it works is OK by me if it replicates Bessler's documented wheel demonstrations.

I think the challenge (for me) is not necessarily to discover a gravity powered PM but rather to simply rediscover Bessler's secret, whatever that was/is. IMO, there is a difference.

[scotty]

I am new here and need to know what would be considered a reasonable model of the perpetual motion fountain.

Squirt water a couple inches above highest standing supply??

No external input after activation.

Run for 20 minutes???

No moving parts, except water flow??

What else do I, we, need to know??

And finally, what would you do with it if you had it??


thanx
scotty

[fAtnhapy]

Scotty I think what they are suggesting is that the fountain would be powered by a pump driven by Besslers wheel.
fAt

[ken_behrendt]

BZ wrote:

Also Bessler claimed his wheel was "simple". If it were that simple, wouldn't at least 1 other person in the history of all humankind discovered just one partial clue to this simple phenomena? How many humans have been on earth. 80-100 billion? and Bessler was the ONLY one chosen by god? I dont buy it. Just more Bessler neptunian delusion.

Like most others here, I am 100% convinced that Bessler did, in fact, achieve a working gravity wheel. However, I do not think it was creating energy out of nothingness or somehow "tapping" into some energy contained in the Earth's gravity field. I rationalize the energy outputted from his wheels as coming from the energy associated with the masses of the weights themselves inside of the wheels. I believe his overbalanced wheels (as would also apply to any such continuously working overbalanced device) managed to convert a tiny percentage of the masses of their weights directly into mechanical energy with every wheel rotation. There is so much energy contained in the masses of the weights that such a wheel, outputting energy at the rate of only a few tens of watts, could probably run continuously for hundreds of thousands of years (assuming, that it did not experience any part failure during that time).

You have, however, posed an interesting and disturbing question...IF Bessler's secret mechanism was so simple, then why has not one of the, perhaps, tens of THOUSANDS of other inventors over the last almost 300 years been able to find that mechanism.

The only answer to this that I find satisfying is that, while simple, there are, indeed, many tens of thousands of ways to arrange a few simple components and adjust their parameters and, apparently, no one else has been lucky enough yet to find the "magical" combination that will work.

However, I think that with Discussion Boards like this and as many modernly equipped researchers working on the problem that the solution will soon be available. In fact, I would be surprised if it is not found before the end of THIS year!


ken

[Novus]

PS: On what basis have you come to the conclusion, "I've concluded Bessler was a fraud but I'm open to the .0001% possibility that he achieved some type of resonance or unknown momentum phenomena."

Well this is the first I have ever even heard of Bessler. At first glance it seems fraudulent but there are a lot people here who think otherwise. My first impressions are that Bessler may have built a relativistic engine somewhat based on Einstien's relativity theory. Faster moving objects have greater mass than slower moving ones. Newton was wrong in this respect on observing momentum. It should be possible in some way or another to have a faster falling weight pull up a slower moving one and get over unity. In time continueity theory a faster moving object is recorded partially twice in spacetime relative to light. Perhapse Bessler's wheel uses the work of a faster moving object twice while storing the work only once while the weight is moving slower.

[Novus]

I cracked the code of Bessler last night. I will post a new thread on what this old clockmaker was on to very shortly. Good old Bessler and his wheel will be resurected before your very eyes.

[jim_mich]

Novus,

Before you get too far along with your hopes and dreams of a perpetual motion wheel, you need to check out the Museum of Unworkable Devices.

[scotty]

jim_mich

thank you,,, i am glad that i signed on

the museum of unworkable devices is fantastic and i will pass it along to the nevada inventors group that i belong to

i am still seeking what are the rules to qualify a PM fountain

if i have to find it elsewhere, i will always recommend this forum for brainpower and interesting STUFF

thanx
scotty

[scotty]

i was afraid this would happen,,,, i kept searching and finally found information that confirms i have built on an old concept,,, "heron's fountain"

i heard a story about an ancient effort to produce this kind of fountain and many sleepless nights later, i made one that works and demonstrated it at the inventor's club meeting

thanx again for a worthwhile forum
i'll get my smarts organized for a new effort and check back later

scotty