Bessler's riddle explained!

[VergingOnDone]

I've read the long post by TommyK in the thread about "why so big??" And it has a lot of info I didn't really read until now. I can see the point about the bicycle wheel attached to a chain to the pedal / gear etc. and the pedal acting as a pendulum now. This question is for TommyK since he seems familiar with the principle, would you say the anvil [MT 13] (pedal) was engaging in thirds on the wheel since the diagram of the circle(see: http://www.orffyre.com/main.html ) has 3 notches cut out of it? (look at MT 51 and the teeth on the long pendulum)

How exactly does the anvil receive blows as well as give them? I could understand it reseting arms and such but I'm missing how the wheel returns the blows to the anvil. I would also love to know how the clubs / kids action works on the ground between pillars as they are swung, held at extended swing, hooked and released to swing again to the next pillar, I'm trying to picture the action as grabbing the rings attached to the so called "jacob's ladder" on MT 138, I'm now thinking it's not a ladder at all but possibly weights with rings on their ends that alternate over the pillars.

[VergingOnDone]

Here's my idea of the circle with 3 white wedges out of it, now thinking about the upside down theory the two wedges that were upwards are now downwards and they represent the full swing of the pedulum of the anvil, which I left at the bottom to show resting position. These two positions would be where the extreme edges would be during each side of the swing. . Thus the 3 kingdoms (phases of rotation?) rolled into 1 object. Do you think this is a plausible idea?

[Jonathan]

All ideas that aren't stupid are plausible...but where is the overunity part? I suppose this isn't the whole device.

[VergingOnDone]

Okay, here is the internal working of the off balancing wheel!!

In the drawing:
A = the two pointed anvil / pendulum.
B = torque govenor wheel
C = off balanced grindstone / runner / lower cylinder ( the black half being heavier than the red side)
D = chain / reins connecting the (driver) torque govenor to the (runner) grindstone / lower cylinder.

Item C=grindstone is ALWAYS going in a clockwise direction. When the pedulum swings from right to left C=grindstone is rotating on the pendulum "Outside position" and A=anvil drives the Torque wheel with the combined weight of C; item A=anvil being fixed to the wall of the wheel by buying rods not pictured when going right to left. As the pendulum finishes to the extreme left position the buying rods are released and the "D" chain is switched to C=grindstone at the "Inside position" whose "feet" are made to jump over the gears of B=torque wheel on this side and drive the chain connected to swing back A=anvil to the right side of the wheel. By then C=grindstone position will have rotated back to the "outside position" at the extreme right of the pendulum.

Remember the banging weights were to fool observers from the internal workings? this is what i discerned from further re-reading the "why so big" thread. Please read this if you haven't yet. This sucker should then always be "Off-centered" transfering it's weight around. I'm still thinking about how the chain switches between the teeth on the governer wheel and the grindstone / runner's teeth / feet so that they slip on one side and catch on the other. And there are several parts "missing" so to speak but this should be the "main parts". Thanks for reading

[JessicaL]

But in reading Das Triumphirende Perpetuum Mobile Orffyreanum it says,

"Around" the firmly placed horizontal "axis" is a rotating disc (or lower cylinder) which resembles a grindstone.

Am I missing something?

[VergingOnDone]

But in reading Das Triumphirende Perpetuum Mobile Orffyreanum it says,

"Around" the firmly placed horizontal "axis" is a rotating disc (or lower cylinder) which resembles a grindstone.

Am I missing something?

No it is described as "around" maybe as in the "vicinity" of the axis and it is firmly attached to the pedulum but on bearings so it rotates:
...."The driver?s portion of a coach, as seen from the coach?s and pendulum?s side, can appear as a large rounded object with a small wheel generally BELOW IT turning just one way"

[VergingOnDone]

I'm thinking there are several drawings in MT to support this latest idea, such as: the pendulum / anvil from MT 13, 51, and 123
the large torque governor wheel from 51 and 52(top wheel)
the small grindstone's legs with foot interacting with TGW(the one with gears on the outside rim) from MT 55
the chain drive from 52 you can see the connection on the left and a pendulum on the right.

These are the images I can see right now applying, some could be missing from orffyre.com images that aren't built yet. Once all the images are there, there could be more.

[trevie]

I believe I have a better solution to the the falling ball wheel, without any friction getting the ball back to the top. thus having 80% torque from the wheel. I will draw it out and post it when I have decided the best way to post the image. It works by moving the centre of gravity within the device I believe this is how the besslerwheel works. I will build a quick model first to make sure it will work then I will show you how it works. just in case its flawed.

[winkle]

looks like moveing the eleven oclock wight early could be the easiest way to gain a advantage

[trevie]

If this works, You are all going to kick yourselfs when you see how this works. can't wait to test it. Finished building a small prototype, just need to get one more part, then its done..fingers crossed..

[Guest]

well oke doke then....tows too...!

[trevie]

well, it worked and didn't work. my model is very rough construction and made out of corrugated cardboard so the motion was a little jerky, in fact it was too jerky and my cylindrical weights had a small rough edge which made the weights rock back and forth. which is not good if you want it to go forward also my model was not quite symmetrical due to been made out of cardboard. I will try Perspex which is easier to mould and smoother. I managed to get half a complete revolution out of the model that was made out of cardboard inserted into a sweet tin and used AA batteries as weights. I will attach a link here to check the pictures and diagrams of my design, If you know anyone who has tried this and failed. please let me know as I can't see anything else like what I have come up with.

check here for Diagram. http://www.trevie.btinternet.co.uk/imag ... swheel.jpg

check here for Model pictures

http://www.trevie.btinternet.co.uk/images/BES1.JPG

http://www.trevie.btinternet.co.uk/images/BES2.JPG

[Oxygon]

Good Greef! man, Go get some hobby wood board...!

[etjoe]

Nice improv! Really like the site the computer is on in the last picture :-)
Go to the local hardware store and get melmine or some really thin plexiglas, while you're there, get a cutter for it too, it'll work much better than cardboard and they're not that expensive.

-e

[trevie]

Thanks for your advice on using something better than Cardboard, I guess I was trying to rush it and found in the end that it was a bad idea using cardboard.. I shall get some plexiboard or hobby board and try again, this time with a little more care.. It just getting the angle right so the weights move at the right time so not to cancel out the weights driving the wheel. If anyone is good at building this sort of stuff, please feel free to have a go at my idea