Game Plan

[Ed]

Ed, I watched 'The Water Engine' for the first time this evening. Thank you!

You're welcome, Jim. Wasn't it interesting how, in the end, it was ambiguous whether the conspiracy was as bad as he thought or if he really caused more of the problems due to his over enthusiasm and paranoia? Even his fate was ambiguous. I think more people here should watch this movie, because it really is relevant to this discussion.

You might think you have a plan, but how will it really unfold?

After watching this movie, and considering Jim's idea here:

Also you can pay for your patent application using a credit card.

you might want to rethink things like this, because perhaps you might find yourself having a conversation with an attorney who represents God knows who and him telling you that "The credit card company owns the patent. They paid for the application, right? Now...are those da plans? Where are da plans? Give, me, da plans!".

On the other hand, it might be important not to be as paranoid as many people seem to be in this field, and be careful who you tell about it, at least until you have completed whatever plan you come up with (including building the danged thing!), because you never know who the real threat might come from...if any.

[jim_mich]

why patent an invention that will certainly be deemed a threat to national security (eg; threat to world economic stability)? It will be confiscated and controlled no matter how many nerds (us) know how it works. Economic stability can be maintained by controlling and suppressing all commercial development. That would obviously mean no pay day for you.

Confiscation is not certain. Knowledge is power. What are the possibilities and options? Either the PTO grants the patent or they don't. Either way, if a PM machine works, you can make money selling them. If you are told to keep quiet, others will know about it and shout it from the internet. A real working PM machine cannot be bottled up, once the gene is released. So the inventor is past being a threat to national security after such knowledge is release. Rather than being a threat, such an invention may become a national asset?

Why waste time and money patenting something that will be legally confiscated and controlled?

Confiscation and control is not certain. Some people love a challenge.

I think more people here should watch this movie, because it really is relevant to this discussion.

Yes, I agree! The movie is broken into ten parts, each about ten minutes long. I was surprised at how few times it had been viewed.

[Ed]

once the gene is released

Monsanto patents... now that's a whole other can of worms! :-)

[jim_mich]

My mistake. That should be 'genie' rather than 'gene'.

[ovyyus]

Either way, if a PM machine works, you can make money selling them. If you are told to keep quiet, others will know about it and shout it from the internet...

Only the organisation who controls a patent can make money selling it. My point was about commercial development being controlled or suppressed. An inventor can not make money from his invention, or even talk about his invention, after it has been confiscated. Others can shout all they like. The inventor's hard won patent becomes their personal noose and a legal gag.

Confiscation and control is not certain...

Jim, you're an optimist! I think your chances, given the potential magnitude of the threat, would be slim to none. The PTO does not serve the inventor. IMO, you need a better plan.

[getterdone]

You've been at this longer than most of us ovyyus, what's your plan for discloser should you see a runner in your shop. You've probably posted here before, but I can't recall reading it

[rasselas]

Only the organisation who controls a patent can make money selling it. My point was about commercial development being controlled or suppressed. An inventor can not make money from his invention, or even talk about his invention, after it has been confiscated. Others can shout all they like. The inventor's hard won patent becomes their personal noose and a legal gag.

Jim, I agree with Ovvyus on this one. They can LEGALLY take your patent. Further, due to the public outrage you've generated in distributing info on it, they WILL probably commence to ACKNOWLEDGE it is PM, but due to inability of YOUR company to manage site-security (ETC), they chose to take it and place it in the hands of some government-trusted-ally.

They may give you a kick-back even (and gag-order), but nevertheless, they will SEEK to control the process. Their time schedule, their use in military-industrial complexes, their ability to HOLD patent rights (so none in the private sector can compete), their setting of the price per kilowatt, etc.

Monsanto is a helpful case-in-point... it's patent-law gone awry... there IS public outrage (in Europe anyways), and yet, did not the EU government still sign on to Monsanto/gmo seed (in 2009)? They said, "it's just on trial basis"... sorta like the US income tax was on trial basis back in 1931.

Rather than being a threat, such an invention may become a national asset?

Very true words. And that is why 99% of the globe's people will be on our side... they see that. Nonetheless - 90% of our globe was on Iraq's side during the UN vote for/against war, yet certain plutocracy-al influences bullied on (imo). However, I think there is need for some optimism here, so thank you Jim. Agreeing with Ed, paranoia can be just as destructive as the object of fear itself.

PS - Plutocracy = government by the wealthy

[rasselas]

Another way, to avoid the public eye & patents altogether, is simply find a venture capitalist with deep pockets - they invest, they R & D, they build infra structure, capacity & manufacture - you take your cut from [that]...

If the idea is that good, & the translation of that to practical engine so easy, then there are very little barriers to entry other than capacity to produce & capital to do so - first in best dressed, & watch the Chinese go head to head with you a year later, patent or no patent - they'd be happy to grab market share & duke it out in the international courts over 2 decades while they made profit.

Fletcher raises a third possibility besides 1) release to public domain, or 2) attempt to patent it... 3) keep it trade-secret, seek out a "parent" company/investor, and generate electricity with it.

Some pro's/con's with this concept anyone??? [there's plenty more to consider than what I present below...]

As regards my opinion... IF it's not kept trade-secret, then indeed you'll duke it out with China... furthermore, you'll also not have a patent, and anyone in the US/world can manufacture/utilize it. So it must be kept trade-secret if it is to be either successful or curb undesired uses. If it is kept trade-secret, then the Chinese 'establisment' can just sit on the side-lines for the moment.

Then in an attempt to keep it trade-secret, a problem I foresee is government (DOE, EPA, etc) inspection/taxation/etc. What if they ask to look inside the "generator"? Will any company take on this challenge knowing the risks (of mechanism design leaks, government fines, etc)?

Which leads one to speculate over even other possibilities...

[Gill Simo]

Anyone who should happen to stumble upon the solution will surely, like Bessler, have nothing other than their `theory` as to how/why it works and once exposed then it will be down to the rest of humanity to investigate/postulate theories until one alone gains common consent/acceptance. All such theories will be based upon what is observed in this working devise and again, like Bessler, all that will be observed will be a movement, hitherto never applied around an axle. This movement will quite rightly/obviously be a principle for PM...as Bessler clearly stated.
That's a scientific principle....and it cannot be patented, no matter how much some folk here might like to drool over their financial Utopia.
The fact that it wouldn't be patentable is entirely academic however as any attempt to present it for patent would certainly lead to it being buried....along with you! Greed will not succeed in this instance, it's God's work, to be proclaimed/celebrated....not a bloody business opportunity to dwarf all others.
Were I to find myself the poor soul to have to carry this great burden of discovery then I would;
Compose an email with simple, clear, step by step instructions on how to construct, aided by a few photo's of those steps... and a short, close up, slow motion video of the thing in motion, ensuring that the attachments do not exceed the 10meg limit. I would go to a cyber cafe, create an anonymous email account and email it to those you'd least expect.....the dozens of friends that my two young kids social network with, all day, every day, with such youthful efficiency and savvy......suggesting that they passed it on likewise, to friends/contacts, preferably avoiding all grown ups....certainly press or institutions of any kind....and most definitely sites such as this. Like this, from the bottom/street up then it would spread like wildfire and be unstoppable.
Then go home and do my very best to forget that I ever had anything whatsoever to do with the whole damn thing in an attempt to prevent my ego from ever daring to admit to it to any other living soul......and pray hard that I don't spend the rest of my days trying to cope with the possible hell that I'd fostered upon the whole of mankind.

[ovyyus]

You've been at this longer than most of us ovyyus, what's your plan for discloser should you see a runner in your shop...

Hmm...

History shows us that patents for revolutionary inventions can be legally confiscated and controlled, leaving the inventor without reward and (perhaps worse) gagged.

Bessler showed us the inherent flaws in the trade-secret approach. Bessler took his secret to the grave, therefore he would care less if a would-be buyer buried his invention - provided he got his money. After all was said and done, self interest won.

IMO, there is only one option that serves the best interests of both the inventor and the community. Set it free.

If the proposed invention was just a new paint colour then I'd probably advise otherwise :D

[jim_mich]

I would venture that there might be a correlation between the concept of 'give it away' and 'financial background'.

Those individuals who grew up with financial security, who have never known hunger, those who have never known the insecurity of not knowing where their next meal might come from, those that may have been sent to college that was paid for by their parents, these people may be the ones most likely to advocate giving away any PM machine.

Conversely those individuals who grew up poor, who have known hunger, who have spent a few nights sleeping on the street, who have seen their children go without simple things like warm boots or warm clothes in the winter time, those who have had trouble paying their bills, these may be the ones most likely to advocate making money from any PM machine.

Am I right or wrong? Is this an upper class verses lower class thing?

I grew up poor. I struggled all my life just to pay my bills and make ends meet. I lived in a run down second hand two bedroom mobile home with four kids and a wife for five years. I know poverty! If there is the slightest chance to make a lot of money from a PM invention, then I'm going to take that chance, risks or threats be damned! Life is an adventure. I'll live it to the fullest!

[ovyyus]

Jim, I think your overly simplistic analysis is wrong.

Some of the biggest tight-arsed bastards I've met, who would rob you blind without remorse, are wealthy and come from wealthy families. Conversely, some of the most honest people I've met, who would give you the shirt off their back if it was the last thing they owned, are broke and come from poor families. Go figure?

[jim_mich]

If PM wheels are going to help mankind, then SOMEONE must build and sell them, right? Who better to do this than the person who conceived and perfected the working machine? Why shouldn't that person make a little profit from his past hard work and labor?

[Mark]

Hammering out the details of the various options and coming up with options not previously discussed is all well and good, but arguing which option is best is a waste of time.

The person who builds it first will be responsible for deciding which road they'll take.

[rasselas]

-If the theory of Big Oil Suppression is true, how can the inventor protect his family or those he holds dear?
-What if the inventor is living paycheck to paycheck, with a big mortgage and children to care for.. and thus he cannot commit any of his own money to promoting the technology?
-What if the inventor is already a millionaire? Should he patent it and build a factory? Is there anything standing in his way?
-What type of plan could be put into place, in case the inventor was ever harmed/"suppressed", to ensure the technology isn't lost?

- If the theory of Big Oil Suppression is true, how can the inventor protect his family or those he holds dear?

* It seems most here seem to agree the theory is true. Jim gave steps of how to disclose the information publicly (whether filing for a patent or no), & after the cat is already out of the bag (and you're not holding the patent)... there is probably little danger. If you are somehow holding the patent though (and the plausibility of this seems questionable)... then the government probably won't kill you... but the oil companies might investigate strong-arm tactics (threats? buy-offs?) to get you to sell your patent (probably at ~$500 mill... not shabby) "legally" to them. Another tactic is to keep it trade-secret and not disclose (till time of death?) that it is indeed perpetual motion. IF you're just after a few million... then publicly disclose the idea... you'll have news-rights and book-rights, awards, banquets, etc... and that will be worth ~$5-mill pretty easily. You'll be much safer as well. HOWEVER, the problem with this is... is our governments (with thousands of stockpiled nuclear missiles, etc) and rogue nations, etc... are they responsible enough to constructively, and only constructively, use this gift???

-What if the inventor is living paycheck to paycheck, with a big mortgage and children to care for.. and thus he cannot commit any of his own money to promoting the technology?

*Arrache group [rlortie, etc] and other individuals (just ask me! for example) would be willing to help... at no up-front cost to yourself. That being said, most members here believe a wheel to be very low cost to build, and other than the legalities/opposition of others... there's not much stopping one from being successful in this venture.

-What if the inventor is already a millionaire? Should he patent it and build a factory? Is there anything standing in his way?

* It's up for debate if seeking a patent is either safe, effective, or responsible. They can attempt to keep it a trade-secret... but how? if you're going to build it with an effective weight of say 2000lbs (1 ton)... then most of us will be looking at contracted laborers constructing the wheel... as well as inspectors, satellites, etc.

-What type of plan could be put into place, in case the inventor was ever harmed/"suppressed", to ensure the technology isn't lost?

* Some suggest disclosing the PM device BEFORE suppression, death, etc. I, for one, question the due consideration of such a plan, though it does have it's merits. But consider... IF you have a typical patent... it's already disclosed to the whole world... so no worries. So the pertinent context is if you are attempting to keep your trade-secret undisclosed. In such a case... the authorities haven't been notified, nor a big-oil company, until you at the least start "shopping-around" for investors (or such). Once you have found an investor/group/friend... they would want to see if it works... they would want to hire laborers to build the wheel... they would need safety inspectors present to make sure it won't explode due to centrifugal stresses... and though PERHAPS you can keep it "under the rug"... there WILL(?) be people who SHARE your (trade-)secret. They might not wish to disclose it at your death... but they will at least wish for their business to thrive, ensuring attempts at keeping your intentions of providing clean energy to the world Alive. There are other (more technological) options of course.