I really don't get this :( No response at all.

[ovyyus]

Movement (turbulence) being loss, there you are again.

[nicbordeaux]

I can live with that Bill. As the turbulence is being created by harnesing an outside "free" force (magnetic), any amount of loss surplus to force necesary to self-sustain system movement is expendable. Magnetic force exists (maybe we can agree on this ?), there has to be a way of harnessing it, and trying unusual approaches might turn something up. Makes a nice change from all the conmen (and outright loonies) out there getting the kiddies to buy thousands of neo mags and unnecesary electronic components and measurement devices in the expectation that arranging them in a circle will make a "zero point magnetic motor" .

It's just a fun game anyway :) One of many projects, and the only one to have anything even remotely to do with buoyancy or mags.

[Unbalanced]

Here is another aspect of this experiment you may not have considered.
If you place a neodymium magnet in a very shallow basin of water it will create a concavity in the water above the magnet. This concavity should keep your ping pong ball(s) from floating away from a point directly above your magnet


From: http://amasci.com/amateur/neodymium.html

DIAMAGNETIC WATER

Place a neodymium magnet in a shallow dish. Fill the dish with water so the magnet is completely covered (about .5cm water above the magnet). Bounce light from a distant small source off the water surface and onto a wall or screen. (sunlight works well.) You will see a uniform oval projected spot of sunlight reflection from the water surface. In the projected oval of light, right at the location of the submerged magnet, you'll find a small bright splotch.
The bright splotch is caused by a concave dimple in the water surface. The magnet repels the water slightly, which creates the concavity. Try using less water so there is just 1mm between the magnet face and the surface. This gives a bigger effect, but some people might then suspect that surface tension plays a role. Try looking down into the bowl so you see the reflection of the ceiling. If you move your head back and forth, you will detect a small distortion at the location of the magnet. C. Brown suggests placing the bowl in front of a screened window, then looking at the reflection of the wire mesh within the bowl. The distorted water surface will cause Moire' patterns to be seen.

[nicbordeaux]

Thx indeed, that is very interesting info. It may not necessarily be a counter productive phenomenen, but the info will definitely help understand a little more of why what happens happens .

[nicbordeaux]

Hmmm... from which one might imagine that if you set a disk spinning 5 cm above the water line, disk with 8 x 56 kg neos, you'd create a vortex and end up projecting goldfish into another dimension :(

Worth a try one day, but sounds pretty unlikely. Imagined behavior and realworld happenings don't often meet in the "PM" world.

headline: "Disturbed backyard inventor astounds scientific community by creating OU water spout in wife's washing up bowl" . Says inventor "The secret of this is basically if you get what I mean you know, like it's about you break the superficial tension , ya know that's like latin for the film at the surface of the water, wull, yawls need to use fairy Liquid 'coz them bubbles add to the zero point convex by acting as a ionic agent an' the energy release calculated as momentum when the bubbles burst is exponential, an' in the case of two bubbles in a elastic collision the energy released might trigger a chain reaction changing the molecular structure of the bowl".

[murilo]

Nic,
hi!
For some times my mind comes back, thinking about this case.

I'm not sure if I lost something, but I'll ask you about:

if it's well understood by me, you intent to keep a not ponderable 'soup' with ping-pong balls, each one with a magnet, all them restless and 'attracted', at distance, by some body underwater.

I ask you: how to avoid the messing attraction between all together magnets and their respective balls? (the opposite polarity will still be very near, besides balls bodies perimeter.)

Note: I like your conception, ok?

Thanx'n regards!
Merry birthday - again! 8)
M.

[bluesgtr44]

Putting the cart before them 'orses wuz a mistake. The 'orses 'ad a 'ard time pushing rather than pulling.

Because of the control factor.....putting the cart before the horse makes it much harder for the horse to control direction. Why? The horse is the force....of course, of course.


Steve

[nicbordeaux]

Murilo, you have the original idea quite right, and the solution is to have your underwater big magnet able to rotate, flip and spin. Also to fill your ping pong bals with a correct amount of acrylic or silicone gum to make them keel (so in addition to the conservative forces magnetic and buoyancy, you add gravity, might as well make it complex), when this is set you inject expansive foam, and last of all, a magnet.

Sit a ball at furthest point from underwater (on the bottom of tank) magnet. If your water level is correct (this is the hardest point) the ball will start moving and accelerate towards the big mag. As it get's too close to the big mag, the mag in the pingpong ball makes the ball flip over, keel on top. It doesn't want to stay this way. So you have overshoot. Adding this gravity/OB component, the concentration of balls isn't as important an issue, plus your tank tilts through 360° over a small amount of travel, so you have added tubulence and slop which further upsets any patterns.

To be honest, testing has shown that best is probably just one ball/mag attached to outside the tank from say an elastic band. The power is coming from the tank movement and weight shift derived from that, and one ball seems to work just as well as 10. As long as it is attached to a flexible system which will skip it back to near the edge of the tank when the distance is "too much".

The water needs to be shallow to kick up a big tubulence, but if it's too shallow, your ball just gets dragged to bottom of tank magnet and stuck there.

Please don't take out a bank loan to buy 10 000 pingpong balls, it's quite possible a square of styrofoam would be just as good.

It's a fun concept, that's all I can say :) Especially when you phone around to get a price for 100 x pingpong balls and the seller asks you if you are a club, and you say "no, I want to play with them in the bath with my wife".

[murilo]

Nic,
one thing I think is clear now: the mags are NOT individually in each ball but in the button of the tank - each ball has an iron piece.
(is that true? If so, irons+balls will not attract one to the other... 8))
I agree that the ideal water between balls/button mags is very critical - besides the 'adjustment' is not so hard to prevent in design.
You made me think about that bath play... any new version for shower? 8]
Best!
M.

[nicbordeaux]

Murilo, there is a very small but quite strong neo mag in each ball. This gives the attraction/repulsion behavior over the big mag, which is mounted so it can "spin".

As you rightly point out, there is attraction between the balls, as all have magnets. Even if all magnets are logically placed with the same polarity facing "out" so that in theory they repel each other, that means the same polarity side glued to the wall of the ball, as they rotate, you get a proximity point where attraction becomes a nuisance. At furthest distance from the big magnet, you also get a problem with the balls due to water film wanting to cling to the side of bowl/tank. The useful interaction force of the mags decreases rapidly with distance. The pinpong balls move easily in the water, but at the outer edge of the mag field, they are easy to stop too.

A neutral steel washer acting as a "attractable" agent instead of a washer might be ok, I honestly don't know.

What I do know is that upsetting the water is easy if the depth is low. And that adding "fins" to the balls helps them to stir the soup. Also that it will be logical to have a recessed area (water filled) in which the big magnet sits and into which pinpong balls can partially sink, so that the system will work with minimum overall water depth. Also that having your big magnet as actually two big magnets mounted opposing polarity 5 cm apart on a swivelling (free to rotate like a horizontal wheel) rod produces some most interesting behavior.

To eliminate the problem of when the balls rotate attraction between them arises, I think a little tube (fence/guard) on the balls just where the mags are will do the trick.

Is this thing of any possible use ? I'll make a very pessimistic guesstimate that from a 1 cubic meter compartment filled 25% (you'll need better and bigger than pingpong balls for sure) which is 250 kgs, you could harvest the weight of the tank overbalanced + about 100 kgs of water force twenty times a minute over 10-20 cm. That is deduction from the behavior of the washing up bowl which has 1/2 50 mm ball glued under center as a pivot, and 1/2 20 mm ball under each corner as travel stops.

As it stands now, I see this just as a useful toy which might, who knows, be able to be turned into a very long running device. It is not terribly high on my list of priorities :)

[murilo]

Nic,
beyond toys, there are some similar projects for harvest tides mechanic energy.
I saw, from Japan, also a buoyant line with proper transmission sw, that would give emergency signal for tsunamis IF all buoys behave up/down at same time. Very clever!
Have a good one!
M.

[Mark]

Why? The horse is the force....of course, of course.

That is, of course, unless the horse...

:D

[nicbordeaux]

Murilo, this concept is interesting because you are creating your own waves and power from conservative forces with no loss of position at end of "cycle", meaning that if you run a very simple system, when everything subsides, it's all at the same distance, except one measley pingpong ball. Meaning that if you harvested some power and considered that magnets are not power, you are OU. That leave's the possibility for the system to self-sustain. That you can create your own water disturbance on a quite big scale is beyond doubt (meaning I have done it) using just the natural forces in the system. The rest, whether it is really "PM possible" is a purely mechanical problem. And there are too many avenues to explore. All leading to new avenues :)

Plus magnets will be deemed to be a source of power which are integrated into any equation. And there is endless argument about whether magnets deplete...

[bluesgtr44]

Why? The horse is the force....of course, of course.

That is, of course, unless the horse...

:D

And we have an Ed here......;-)


Steve

[Mark]

Well, Steve, I think that what we need is a Wilbur. So he could ask Ed, "Why is it that the horse should be harnessed in front?"

lol