Your assistance would be greatly appreciated - I know there are many experienced & knowledgeable forum members here who can give me sound advice & opinion.
Background :
Mid last year I started building a guest house on land here in fiji - as of now it is almost completed - next week I have a few things to do to get a step closer.
The house is single level, two showers & ensuites, kitchen & laundry - beginning of last year I completed a caretakers house - it is 20 meters from the guest house & floor 2 meters higher [equivalent of a second story for pumping purposes] & contains shower, kitchen & laundry.
Both houses have rain water storage - both houses are plumbed with 25 mm plastic water pipe but this is not connected to any pumping or gravity fed system - there has been no grid power until recently & I am just about to hook up to mains, 240 v.
I want to install one electric pump to feed pressurized water to both houses - I have been looking around at various pumps & seem to be getting conflicting information from various salesmen which is where your expertise comes in, to short cut my learning curve.
First, the grid power will be connected next week - I am going underground from the transformer & upgrading the standard rural connect 6 amp wire to 16 or 20 amp to handle larger loads & more appliances perhaps.
I have been looking at electric pumps in the 2.2 amp to 6 amp range depending on model etc - their flow rates from 30 liters per minute [2-4 amps] to 130 liters per minute [4.5-6.5 amps] - so far I've discovered that most are fitted with electric pressure switches [sensors] though some are mechanical using spring loaded switches.
In essence I'm told that the electric switches are very good but because they have circuit boards are subject to failure if power supply spikes etc - this is fiji & power can come & go & I dare say hertz fluctuate from 50 cycles - I am wondering if a power supply spike regulator installed in the circuit box would help when I install the underground cable next week or so to save damaging the circuits boards ? - otherwise it appears I could head for trouble - the alternative of a mechanical spring loaded switch sounds good but I'm told it can't sense if your supply of water has run out & shut off the pump as the electric switch can ?
Next I have been weighing up the benefits between pressure cylinder versions & the straight on demand delivery systems which I currently prefer - I'm told that on demand delivery systems which have mechanical switches can have problems with wave cavitation so not always shutting off & restarting but that the electric switches do not have this problem with instant shut-off ?
If I use a pressure cylinder do I need to periodically pump more air into the system ?
What are the advantages of either systems over the other ?
Lastly for now - I am concerned that the showers will be weak if more than one tap is running - I intend to create a loop system whereby all exits receive the same pressure - the alternative of in-series would see the last in line the weakest IINM ? - I could possibly T off the showers early in the line to keep pressure up ?
I intend to plumb 30 mm pipe from pump then reduce down to the already installed 25 mm line beneath the houses.
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What are your thoughts about how to best go about this to end up with an efficient system ?
I am favouring a pump with flow rate of 130 liters/min & 4.5 amps with mechanical switch at the minute though electric may be the only option at this size from what I've sen to date ?
I discarded gravity feed because of the low delivery rate.
Thanks in advance !
Designing an efficient domestic water supply system.
Moderator: scott
re: Designing an efficient domestic water supply system.
Go with the biggest pump and the biggest pipe sizes else you risk low water pressure and slow flow rates. Use a mechanical pressure switch. If there is risk that the water pump might run dry then add a second mechanical switch to sense loss of water. This could be a float switch or maybe a pressure switch if the situation allows it. The only time I've had a mechanical pressure switch fail was due to scale buildup clogging the supply pipe to the switch, which can happen with any type of switche.
Is all of your water going to come from rain fall? Or do you have a water well or maybe a stream?
I just cannot imagine getting enough water from rainfall to handle household needs.
Also I cannot imagine drinking rain water. My water comes from a well and has lots of nice healthy natural minerals. The water has been in the ground since the glaciers melted a few thousand years ago. No radioactive fallout in my water!
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Maybe my experience can be of help?
My water comes from a deep well about 25 feet from the house. The well is a 5 inch (12.7 cm) PVC pipe extending about 30 feet into the ground until it meets bed rock. Then there is a 4 inch hole bored down thru sandstone to a depth of about 80 feet (24 meters). The sandstone has many natural cracks and thus supplies more water than ever needed. The water table is between 8 and 12 feet from the ground depending upon time of year.
A stainless steel submersible pump is dropped down the well to a depth of about 20 feet and has a 1-1/4 inch PVC pipe. There is a "pitless adapter" that connects the pipe through the well casing to another same size PVC pipe outside the well, which runs underground into the house. The electric 12 gage wires pass out the top of the well and then run down the side of the well and along next to the pipe into the house. Inside the basement is a bladder type pressure tank. I think it holds about 20 gallons (75 liters) maximum. After initial pressurizing, it never needs any air added.
The fitting on the tank is 1 inch pipe, so the 1-1/4 inch PVC incoming pipe is reduced down before going into the tank. This is where the mechanical pressure switch is located and a pressure gage. A 3/4 inch ID copper pipe feeds the whole house from there. When the pipe feeds one fixture then the pipe size drops to 1/2 inch ID.
The water pump turns on when the pressure in the basement drops to 37 PSI and turns off when it rises to 41 PSI. Because the upstairs shower head is about 20 feet above the pressure switch the water pressure at the shower head runs between 27 PSI and 31 PSI. The flow of water throughout the house is always steady, though the temperature in the shower can fluctuate slightly as valves open and close in other parts of the house.
I like a nice strong shower. Anything below 25 PSI is wimpy. A 50 foot water tower would give you about 25 PSI. Most shower heads come with flow limiting devices, which limit the shower volume and thus they produce a wimpy shower at any pressure. Usually it's just a washer that can be easily removed or drilled out.
The bottom line is do you want nice comfortable water flow or do you want fixtures that dribble and barely flow at times. Two years ago I replaced all the plumbing in our second home because it was 30 to 60 years old and so clogged up with rust and scale that when you turned on one fixture all the others quit flowing. I used the new PEX plastic tubing, which is a big labor saver, but requires buying an expensive crimping tool and a ring cutting tool for making repairs.
Is all of your water going to come from rain fall? Or do you have a water well or maybe a stream?
I just cannot imagine getting enough water from rainfall to handle household needs.
Also I cannot imagine drinking rain water. My water comes from a well and has lots of nice healthy natural minerals. The water has been in the ground since the glaciers melted a few thousand years ago. No radioactive fallout in my water!
----------------------------------------------
Maybe my experience can be of help?
My water comes from a deep well about 25 feet from the house. The well is a 5 inch (12.7 cm) PVC pipe extending about 30 feet into the ground until it meets bed rock. Then there is a 4 inch hole bored down thru sandstone to a depth of about 80 feet (24 meters). The sandstone has many natural cracks and thus supplies more water than ever needed. The water table is between 8 and 12 feet from the ground depending upon time of year.
A stainless steel submersible pump is dropped down the well to a depth of about 20 feet and has a 1-1/4 inch PVC pipe. There is a "pitless adapter" that connects the pipe through the well casing to another same size PVC pipe outside the well, which runs underground into the house. The electric 12 gage wires pass out the top of the well and then run down the side of the well and along next to the pipe into the house. Inside the basement is a bladder type pressure tank. I think it holds about 20 gallons (75 liters) maximum. After initial pressurizing, it never needs any air added.
The fitting on the tank is 1 inch pipe, so the 1-1/4 inch PVC incoming pipe is reduced down before going into the tank. This is where the mechanical pressure switch is located and a pressure gage. A 3/4 inch ID copper pipe feeds the whole house from there. When the pipe feeds one fixture then the pipe size drops to 1/2 inch ID.
The water pump turns on when the pressure in the basement drops to 37 PSI and turns off when it rises to 41 PSI. Because the upstairs shower head is about 20 feet above the pressure switch the water pressure at the shower head runs between 27 PSI and 31 PSI. The flow of water throughout the house is always steady, though the temperature in the shower can fluctuate slightly as valves open and close in other parts of the house.
I like a nice strong shower. Anything below 25 PSI is wimpy. A 50 foot water tower would give you about 25 PSI. Most shower heads come with flow limiting devices, which limit the shower volume and thus they produce a wimpy shower at any pressure. Usually it's just a washer that can be easily removed or drilled out.
The bottom line is do you want nice comfortable water flow or do you want fixtures that dribble and barely flow at times. Two years ago I replaced all the plumbing in our second home because it was 30 to 60 years old and so clogged up with rust and scale that when you turned on one fixture all the others quit flowing. I used the new PEX plastic tubing, which is a big labor saver, but requires buying an expensive crimping tool and a ring cutting tool for making repairs.
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Unbalanced
- Aficionado
- Posts: 672
- Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:53 pm
- Location: Bend, OR
re: Designing an efficient domestic water supply system.
Good Day Fletcher,
Very glad to hear the tsunami was a non-event in Fiji. Not so here on the west coast. A fellow from my home town was swept out to sea near Crescent City, CA. A Darwin award for idiocy. He was standing on a rock with his video camera, below tideline. I can hear him now: "what a shot, what a shot, OMG WTF" done.
As a marine engineer and fabricator of several domestic H2O systems utilizing water from tanks, I recommend a single submersible pump within your collection tank fitted with a float switch as well as an inline spring operated pressure switch wired in series to this submersible pump. This will insure proper shut off lest you run out of water.
A pressure tank with an air badder is a nice feature though a "Tee" off the top of the tank with a small expansion tank fitted does the trick nicely.
I have looked at several systems installed in homes in Bermuda and throughout the Caribbean and this configuration of one pump and two switches is common amongst the better installations.
http://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/oc/freepubs/pdf/RM-12.pdf
Here are some links that may prove useful:
http://www.gdrc.org/uem/water/rainwater ... rguide.pdf
http://www.goulds.com/pdf/BRRWHC.pdf
http://www.rainwatermanagement.com/products.php
http://www.rainwaterharvesting.co.uk/pr ... php?cat=17
http://www.rainwaterharvesting.co.uk/ra ... e-pump.php
In the tropics the Bermudians with their lime covered roofs seem to have the best system for keeping bacteria out of their catchments but you undoubtedly already have your roofs up.
Ditto Jim_Mich's input.
Though it is great to have a strong flow at the shower heads, this will likely be your greatest consumer of water.
On my topsail schooner we used flow restricters in the shower heads and these were easy to get use to after a time.
I dream of the day I should have such wonderful projects again to occupy my time.
All best, C
Very glad to hear the tsunami was a non-event in Fiji. Not so here on the west coast. A fellow from my home town was swept out to sea near Crescent City, CA. A Darwin award for idiocy. He was standing on a rock with his video camera, below tideline. I can hear him now: "what a shot, what a shot, OMG WTF" done.
As a marine engineer and fabricator of several domestic H2O systems utilizing water from tanks, I recommend a single submersible pump within your collection tank fitted with a float switch as well as an inline spring operated pressure switch wired in series to this submersible pump. This will insure proper shut off lest you run out of water.
A pressure tank with an air badder is a nice feature though a "Tee" off the top of the tank with a small expansion tank fitted does the trick nicely.
I have looked at several systems installed in homes in Bermuda and throughout the Caribbean and this configuration of one pump and two switches is common amongst the better installations.
http://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/oc/freepubs/pdf/RM-12.pdf
Here are some links that may prove useful:
http://www.gdrc.org/uem/water/rainwater ... rguide.pdf
http://www.goulds.com/pdf/BRRWHC.pdf
http://www.rainwatermanagement.com/products.php
http://www.rainwaterharvesting.co.uk/pr ... php?cat=17
http://www.rainwaterharvesting.co.uk/ra ... e-pump.php
In the tropics the Bermudians with their lime covered roofs seem to have the best system for keeping bacteria out of their catchments but you undoubtedly already have your roofs up.
Ditto Jim_Mich's input.
Though it is great to have a strong flow at the shower heads, this will likely be your greatest consumer of water.
On my topsail schooner we used flow restricters in the shower heads and these were easy to get use to after a time.
I dream of the day I should have such wonderful projects again to occupy my time.
All best, C
re: Designing an efficient domestic water supply system.
Fletcher,
you got already good wise but as an old suffered builder of a house, I would plan by all means to use gravity suspended reservation, one or two in series, with minimum 1000lt each.
As Jim said 15m is enough, but 7 to 6 will sent already good pressure and flow with 50mm tubes, before local distribution.
All tubes for distribution may have close circuit (endless circuit) in order to avoid water counter surges.
I guess that Jacuzzi will have a series current pressure bath pump.
My best argument for gravity is that if you have any grid trouble, some good water will be still there! 8)
I got very good experiences with vibratory water pumps... really good! They can be submerged or floating type and be switched by a level control right inside the water suspended reservation.
Best!
M.
you got already good wise but as an old suffered builder of a house, I would plan by all means to use gravity suspended reservation, one or two in series, with minimum 1000lt each.
As Jim said 15m is enough, but 7 to 6 will sent already good pressure and flow with 50mm tubes, before local distribution.
All tubes for distribution may have close circuit (endless circuit) in order to avoid water counter surges.
I guess that Jacuzzi will have a series current pressure bath pump.
My best argument for gravity is that if you have any grid trouble, some good water will be still there! 8)
I got very good experiences with vibratory water pumps... really good! They can be submerged or floating type and be switched by a level control right inside the water suspended reservation.
Best!
M.
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FunWithGravity2
- Devotee
- Posts: 1040
- Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:32 pm
re: Designing an efficient domestic water supply system.
I'm currently at 400 feet in the bedrock, terrible flow (1gpm) which is why i need the depth, i have an 8 inch casing so my volume is great and capacity is large enough to overcome the low flow.
I have mechanical pressure switch and stand by that as i have had great success, when the latest pump was installed when i went from 200 down to the 400 feet the installer recommend a current draw type of protection device. it senses the current draw that the pump is putting on the system and can tell if the pump has run dry or if their is some other voltage issue, if their is an issue it will turn of supply to the pump to stop it from burning out or frying. It was cheap insurance when your pump is down 400 feet and cost close to 2 grand. Not sure if this type of protection is what you were reffering to.
I have ALOT of friends in the trades and the least expensive and best thing to do if it can be done up front is to keep your lines as big as possible for as long as possible. If you could get the line to stay 3/4(or bigger) all the way to the bathroom it would make a huge difference. Budgetary constraints and practicality have ussually stopped most contractors from doing this(or local codes). But every inch will help you that you can keep bigger. If you pump pressurizes your reservoir(air bladder tank) with a 1 inch input then i would suggest coming of the tank with at least the same size(if not bigger). and continuing with the largest diameter possible for as far as possible.
Ditto on the over the couter shower head modifications per Jim.
I have installed/repaired my share of on demand pumps in RV's(not homes) and considering your remote location or the availability of AC power having a nice 12v on demand system for backup is always a nice way to go.
You could also go with a dual system in money permits, a float operated switch to a 1000 gallon sistern and high volume pump to fill it and then a smaller on demand 110/12volt pump for use. The sistern is always a nice way to have plenty of fresh water available in the event of a natural disaster.
None of this was to your point but i felt 2cents was due. I was dreaming about having your life :)
Dave
I have mechanical pressure switch and stand by that as i have had great success, when the latest pump was installed when i went from 200 down to the 400 feet the installer recommend a current draw type of protection device. it senses the current draw that the pump is putting on the system and can tell if the pump has run dry or if their is some other voltage issue, if their is an issue it will turn of supply to the pump to stop it from burning out or frying. It was cheap insurance when your pump is down 400 feet and cost close to 2 grand. Not sure if this type of protection is what you were reffering to.
I have ALOT of friends in the trades and the least expensive and best thing to do if it can be done up front is to keep your lines as big as possible for as long as possible. If you could get the line to stay 3/4(or bigger) all the way to the bathroom it would make a huge difference. Budgetary constraints and practicality have ussually stopped most contractors from doing this(or local codes). But every inch will help you that you can keep bigger. If you pump pressurizes your reservoir(air bladder tank) with a 1 inch input then i would suggest coming of the tank with at least the same size(if not bigger). and continuing with the largest diameter possible for as far as possible.
Ditto on the over the couter shower head modifications per Jim.
I have installed/repaired my share of on demand pumps in RV's(not homes) and considering your remote location or the availability of AC power having a nice 12v on demand system for backup is always a nice way to go.
You could also go with a dual system in money permits, a float operated switch to a 1000 gallon sistern and high volume pump to fill it and then a smaller on demand 110/12volt pump for use. The sistern is always a nice way to have plenty of fresh water available in the event of a natural disaster.
None of this was to your point but i felt 2cents was due. I was dreaming about having your life :)
Dave
Si mobile in circumferentia circuli feratur ea celeritate, quam acquirit cadendo ex
altitudine, quae sit quartae parti diameter aequalis ; habebit vim centrifugam suae
gravitati aequalem.
altitudine, quae sit quartae parti diameter aequalis ; habebit vim centrifugam suae
gravitati aequalem.
re: Designing an efficient domestic water supply system.
Many thanks guys - I read all your comments with interest & then took a day of two to digest them & reconsider my approach.
Further Information :
Three years ago I had two bores sunk on the property - the opportunity was there with water drillers on the island for a few weeks - I cut tracks into suitable sites up valleys & sunk 6 inc PVC casings to ~20 meters - No.1. well was 20 m's & No.2. was at 22 m's - both bores are about 250 m apart as the crow fly's with one about 100 m inland from the coastal road [about 50 m from beach] & the other about 400 m's from the road - I staggered them in distance from the road so that if one went salty & couldn't be used, or dried up, there was less chance that both would go bad at the same time being at different distances inland & in different acquifers - No.1. bore is about 150 m inland from my house & this is the one I'm considering using given your comments.
I sunk these bores because the property used to have plentiful spring water until an earthquake in around 1981 I'm told - at that time the springs stopped & never came back - I finally found one very small spring in a dried up stream bed [close to No.1. well] in the same year but the flow was pathetic - I reasoned that since a large lagoon is in front of my property that that must be evidence of fresh water flow up thru the sands forming the lagoon as coral won't grow around river mouths or in brackish water - my caretaker who dives the lagoon & reef tells me there is plenty of water rising thru the sands which seemed to confirm the hypothesis.
Anyway, if it were true then that would mean that there was still plenty of ground water getting to the sea [the property rises 100 m's at back about 2 km's from the beaches so is a series of gentle slopes of rolling topography covered in bush.
On to details - both wells produced potable water - they were flow tested by running a petrol pump for 24 hours - it had a discharge rate of 3000 liters per hour - the bores were sunk in the dry season & water level at No.1. was 6 m's down - both dropped 10 meters in 24 hours [16 m's No.1.] & full recovery was in 12 hours or so [back up to 6 m's].
I capped the bores & left them till I built some houses etc - I also had a mind to use them for reticulation to future subdivisions of coastal lifestyle lots I would develop [stage one underway] on the property.
N.B. interestingly the No.1. bore has become artesian in the wet season with a steady flow from the loose fitting cap - this means that the well is being regularly flushed & that it could also be of great advantage to me, I think.
More to come & your further thoughts opinions welcome as I sort this out !
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Further Information :
Three years ago I had two bores sunk on the property - the opportunity was there with water drillers on the island for a few weeks - I cut tracks into suitable sites up valleys & sunk 6 inc PVC casings to ~20 meters - No.1. well was 20 m's & No.2. was at 22 m's - both bores are about 250 m apart as the crow fly's with one about 100 m inland from the coastal road [about 50 m from beach] & the other about 400 m's from the road - I staggered them in distance from the road so that if one went salty & couldn't be used, or dried up, there was less chance that both would go bad at the same time being at different distances inland & in different acquifers - No.1. bore is about 150 m inland from my house & this is the one I'm considering using given your comments.
I sunk these bores because the property used to have plentiful spring water until an earthquake in around 1981 I'm told - at that time the springs stopped & never came back - I finally found one very small spring in a dried up stream bed [close to No.1. well] in the same year but the flow was pathetic - I reasoned that since a large lagoon is in front of my property that that must be evidence of fresh water flow up thru the sands forming the lagoon as coral won't grow around river mouths or in brackish water - my caretaker who dives the lagoon & reef tells me there is plenty of water rising thru the sands which seemed to confirm the hypothesis.
Anyway, if it were true then that would mean that there was still plenty of ground water getting to the sea [the property rises 100 m's at back about 2 km's from the beaches so is a series of gentle slopes of rolling topography covered in bush.
On to details - both wells produced potable water - they were flow tested by running a petrol pump for 24 hours - it had a discharge rate of 3000 liters per hour - the bores were sunk in the dry season & water level at No.1. was 6 m's down - both dropped 10 meters in 24 hours [16 m's No.1.] & full recovery was in 12 hours or so [back up to 6 m's].
I capped the bores & left them till I built some houses etc - I also had a mind to use them for reticulation to future subdivisions of coastal lifestyle lots I would develop [stage one underway] on the property.
N.B. interestingly the No.1. bore has become artesian in the wet season with a steady flow from the loose fitting cap - this means that the well is being regularly flushed & that it could also be of great advantage to me, I think.
More to come & your further thoughts opinions welcome as I sort this out !
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re: Designing an efficient domestic water supply system.
Some pics for those interested.
- Attachments
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- WaiKona Point shot
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- Beach etc
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- Beach etc
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- Guest House
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- Guest House overlooking lagoon
re: Designing an efficient domestic water supply system.
Some more.
- Attachments
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- Nasisila Beach western side of property
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- Nasisila Beach western side of property
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- Property
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- Dalice [Daleethey] Lifestyle Subdivision Stage 1
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- From Google Earth
Last edited by Fletcher on Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Unbalanced
- Aficionado
- Posts: 672
- Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:53 pm
- Location: Bend, OR
re: Designing an efficient domestic water supply system.
Hi Fletcher,
Like the new head shot avatar.
What is the elevation of the top of the two bore casings as compared to your houses? The average elevation to the water itself? I ask because we used a gravity feed from a dug well for decades on an Island we lived on. Once you get the syphon going you're golden. Seems that if it overflows its casing you have the potential. If the elevation isn't adequate for your pressure needs a tank and buster pump would serve the purpose.
If you had used metal casings a stick of dynamite down the hole might just have done the trick in restarting your springs
Like the new head shot avatar.
What is the elevation of the top of the two bore casings as compared to your houses? The average elevation to the water itself? I ask because we used a gravity feed from a dug well for decades on an Island we lived on. Once you get the syphon going you're golden. Seems that if it overflows its casing you have the potential. If the elevation isn't adequate for your pressure needs a tank and buster pump would serve the purpose.
If you had used metal casings a stick of dynamite down the hole might just have done the trick in restarting your springs
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Unbalanced
- Aficionado
- Posts: 672
- Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:53 pm
- Location: Bend, OR
re: Designing an efficient domestic water supply system.
Just Like I pictured it!!! Torture to us snow bound in Oregon. Very nice.
re: Designing an efficient domestic water supply system.
I don't know the elevation of the first bore but it is slightly lower than the second - my guess is about 30 m's above sea level - I'm off shortly to buy a digital altimeter from Dick Smiths to find out :7)
The houses are about 10 m's above av sea level.
Murilo .. gravity feed is an option but not one I'd prefer as I have to build a tower or place the header tank up a tree that I scoped - unfortunately the houses are at the highest point near the beach & the next available high land suitable for fall is hundreds of meters away - also there is the problem of low pressure & big supply lines required.
Curtis & Jim .. rain water is used in fiji a lot & in rural NZ - there doesn't seem to be any problems with contamination etc or periodic cleaning of tanks required etc - it always tastes cool, fresh & good - having said that your link pages Curtis gave me a wake up call so I should stay clear of it if possible & perhaps keep it for watering gardens, gray water, & backup etc - if I did a submersible would be a good option.
Jim .. the well pump option looks attractive except for the installation price in my case - I think I'll first see if I can get a syphon flow to a low point & that means running a couple of hundred meters at least of say 2 inch alcathene pipe - then I will raise the outlet end to see if it still flows at house level - if does, all good - if not, feed to tank with ball cock float shut off switch, then transfer pump to lift to houses height & pressurize system.
N.B. most pumps can suck to a height of about 6 m's but can push water 50 m's or more ?
1. Following your experiences Jim if I can get a syphon all the way up to the houses then I may be able to use an in-line on-demand pump [at the house] with dual pressure switches straight into the houses without a ballast tank or pressure vessel ? - no well pump required ?
N.B. Providing that the delivery pipe diameter is large enough [volume] & providing that the syphon effect is doing most of the work so the pump doesn't have to pull to hard, especially if still flowing downhill on average to a booster pump ?
2. If it won't syphon to that height in all seasons when the head drops then I will have to use a well pump & run the power cable to it [expensive] - then, if I read your description correctly, that same pump also pressurizes your house with a mechanical pressure switch & pressure vessel but doesn't need a booster/transfer pump ?
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As I said, I was thinking of reticulating a community supply scheme to the subdivision from the bores in series pumped to a large header tank near the top of the property [elevation about 100 m] - I've gone off that idea & instead the residents will probably use rain water or can tanker truck in water if they run out - I'll supply it free & they pay for cartage.
Later, when the mix of owners is known [I expect a homogenous mix of permanent residents, retiries spending months at a time here, & holiday homes] then I will approach the residents to design & fund a community scheme which they will take an active part in - that way I avoid future litigation liability & setup costs - any resident who doesn't want to participate doesn't need too & can stay on the rain system - those who do will fund it [which I can add to a vendors finance option] & then they will pay an annual maintenance fee of a few hundred dollars & pay for water metered on property [that seems fair] - that way they will establish rain collection first & then may switch in full or in part to the acquifer community system depending on their needs & fears, but they don't have to participate - that will suit holiday home owners.
All further thoughts welcome.
The houses are about 10 m's above av sea level.
Murilo .. gravity feed is an option but not one I'd prefer as I have to build a tower or place the header tank up a tree that I scoped - unfortunately the houses are at the highest point near the beach & the next available high land suitable for fall is hundreds of meters away - also there is the problem of low pressure & big supply lines required.
Curtis & Jim .. rain water is used in fiji a lot & in rural NZ - there doesn't seem to be any problems with contamination etc or periodic cleaning of tanks required etc - it always tastes cool, fresh & good - having said that your link pages Curtis gave me a wake up call so I should stay clear of it if possible & perhaps keep it for watering gardens, gray water, & backup etc - if I did a submersible would be a good option.
Jim .. the well pump option looks attractive except for the installation price in my case - I think I'll first see if I can get a syphon flow to a low point & that means running a couple of hundred meters at least of say 2 inch alcathene pipe - then I will raise the outlet end to see if it still flows at house level - if does, all good - if not, feed to tank with ball cock float shut off switch, then transfer pump to lift to houses height & pressurize system.
N.B. most pumps can suck to a height of about 6 m's but can push water 50 m's or more ?
1. Following your experiences Jim if I can get a syphon all the way up to the houses then I may be able to use an in-line on-demand pump [at the house] with dual pressure switches straight into the houses without a ballast tank or pressure vessel ? - no well pump required ?
N.B. Providing that the delivery pipe diameter is large enough [volume] & providing that the syphon effect is doing most of the work so the pump doesn't have to pull to hard, especially if still flowing downhill on average to a booster pump ?
2. If it won't syphon to that height in all seasons when the head drops then I will have to use a well pump & run the power cable to it [expensive] - then, if I read your description correctly, that same pump also pressurizes your house with a mechanical pressure switch & pressure vessel but doesn't need a booster/transfer pump ?
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As I said, I was thinking of reticulating a community supply scheme to the subdivision from the bores in series pumped to a large header tank near the top of the property [elevation about 100 m] - I've gone off that idea & instead the residents will probably use rain water or can tanker truck in water if they run out - I'll supply it free & they pay for cartage.
Later, when the mix of owners is known [I expect a homogenous mix of permanent residents, retiries spending months at a time here, & holiday homes] then I will approach the residents to design & fund a community scheme which they will take an active part in - that way I avoid future litigation liability & setup costs - any resident who doesn't want to participate doesn't need too & can stay on the rain system - those who do will fund it [which I can add to a vendors finance option] & then they will pay an annual maintenance fee of a few hundred dollars & pay for water metered on property [that seems fair] - that way they will establish rain collection first & then may switch in full or in part to the acquifer community system depending on their needs & fears, but they don't have to participate - that will suit holiday home owners.
All further thoughts welcome.
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Unbalanced
- Aficionado
- Posts: 672
- Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:53 pm
- Location: Bend, OR
re: Designing an efficient domestic water supply system.
Hi Fletcher,
If you don't want to spend for a GPS or an altimeter you can get a pretty accurate elevation from Google Earth. I was just looking down on your place and it appears as though the elevations have been measured by satellite based radar. The lagoon shows zero and you can swing your cursor over your bores and get a very close reading.
Are your wells inland of the Hibiscus Hwy? Will you have to run your lines under the road?
If you are just now getting electrical utility what type of generation plant have you been running... I'm guessing a two-lung Lister or Honda.
If you don't want to spend for a GPS or an altimeter you can get a pretty accurate elevation from Google Earth. I was just looking down on your place and it appears as though the elevations have been measured by satellite based radar. The lagoon shows zero and you can swing your cursor over your bores and get a very close reading.
Are your wells inland of the Hibiscus Hwy? Will you have to run your lines under the road?
If you are just now getting electrical utility what type of generation plant have you been running... I'm guessing a two-lung Lister or Honda.
re: Designing an efficient domestic water supply system.
Fletcher,
the place you have will pay ten times the 'problems' you may find! 8)
Go for it!
Congratulations indeed!
BTW, the houses used water is something to have also under spot...
Best!
Muliro
the place you have will pay ten times the 'problems' you may find! 8)
Go for it!
Congratulations indeed!
BTW, the houses used water is something to have also under spot...
Best!
Muliro
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nicbordeaux
- Addict
- Posts: 2140
- Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:54 pm
- Location: France
Hi Fletcher,
I've just installed a pump for our well. It's not deep. Water starts at 1 meter 50 cm below ground, bottom of well is near 7 meters, which is max reccomended suction height. The ejection height or length of vertical pipe after pump is given as 38 meters. Guess this might be a bit optimistic. Depth of your wells will get you into much pricier stuff, and everybody told me that if I deepend the well a laod, it's best to go immerged pump.
Anyway the pump is a cheapo (150 euros) surface, 20 l tank and air bladder, so on demand. Only 4000 litres per hour (pfff, just 4 tonnes of water). Being surface mounted, you need a bigger than you want breeze block or else kennel to protect it from the elements, whilst still giving it some fresh air. It is water cooled turbine, but you'd still want to avoid too tight confinement.
The things are noisey whatever anbody says, especially at night, a real pest. The immerged type are definitely self-priming, and make a heck of a load less noise.
Fabulous place you have, congrats. Maybe you already know about paying guests, if not, let me tell you that they are 90% a right royal pain in the rectum. They want the secluded beauty, with all the amenities of urban America. So if the pump goes, there is likely a load of noise and you have to shoot them, which ain't good for repeat business. How about several small pumps as described from a just underground parking reservoir supplied by a decent immerged pump. One for each abode, and one as a backup ? Just a thought.
Only pertinent advice I can give is beware of plastic (be it hi-tec ABS or else...) female screw fitments on the pump body. They can't last. The pumps mostly come without a suction pipe and filter in box. Whatever you do, get a suction pipe with as big a bore as the pump is designed for, add washer (often not supplied with the suction kit), and mucho teflon both ends. Also keep your suction filter at least 40 cm off the well bottom (mine has a home made bent up steel tube gizmo which clamps on the pipe just above filter, and has four weights, one for each foot so it stays nice and vertical) . Otherwise, your suction filter anti-return valve will not be airtight with just a grain of sand. Because this is the big hassle of above ground pumps, although they may say "self-priming", they rarely are. So if you have any problems with leak in the supply pipe, therfore air entering the system, you spend your life pouring water back into the pipe and the pump body and getting the things started again. Invariably, the only way to do it is to pull the whole suction pipe out, lift it way above the pump, and pour water into it with a teaup until it is full and has also filled the pump body, chasing any air out o' the system.
The thing works a beaut, pumps the 20 l tank to 3 bars, and stops. Cuts back in at 1.5 bars. I've reduced the outlet dia to 19 mm hose, plenty water at pressure for a shower if that was the aim. There is a thermal protection which switches the juice off above a certain t° level, deemed to be synonomous of water shortage at the pump. This feature includes a timer, so the pump restarts auto after 5 minutes...
I've just installed a pump for our well. It's not deep. Water starts at 1 meter 50 cm below ground, bottom of well is near 7 meters, which is max reccomended suction height. The ejection height or length of vertical pipe after pump is given as 38 meters. Guess this might be a bit optimistic. Depth of your wells will get you into much pricier stuff, and everybody told me that if I deepend the well a laod, it's best to go immerged pump.
Anyway the pump is a cheapo (150 euros) surface, 20 l tank and air bladder, so on demand. Only 4000 litres per hour (pfff, just 4 tonnes of water). Being surface mounted, you need a bigger than you want breeze block or else kennel to protect it from the elements, whilst still giving it some fresh air. It is water cooled turbine, but you'd still want to avoid too tight confinement.
The things are noisey whatever anbody says, especially at night, a real pest. The immerged type are definitely self-priming, and make a heck of a load less noise.
Fabulous place you have, congrats. Maybe you already know about paying guests, if not, let me tell you that they are 90% a right royal pain in the rectum. They want the secluded beauty, with all the amenities of urban America. So if the pump goes, there is likely a load of noise and you have to shoot them, which ain't good for repeat business. How about several small pumps as described from a just underground parking reservoir supplied by a decent immerged pump. One for each abode, and one as a backup ? Just a thought.
Only pertinent advice I can give is beware of plastic (be it hi-tec ABS or else...) female screw fitments on the pump body. They can't last. The pumps mostly come without a suction pipe and filter in box. Whatever you do, get a suction pipe with as big a bore as the pump is designed for, add washer (often not supplied with the suction kit), and mucho teflon both ends. Also keep your suction filter at least 40 cm off the well bottom (mine has a home made bent up steel tube gizmo which clamps on the pipe just above filter, and has four weights, one for each foot so it stays nice and vertical) . Otherwise, your suction filter anti-return valve will not be airtight with just a grain of sand. Because this is the big hassle of above ground pumps, although they may say "self-priming", they rarely are. So if you have any problems with leak in the supply pipe, therfore air entering the system, you spend your life pouring water back into the pipe and the pump body and getting the things started again. Invariably, the only way to do it is to pull the whole suction pipe out, lift it way above the pump, and pour water into it with a teaup until it is full and has also filled the pump body, chasing any air out o' the system.
The thing works a beaut, pumps the 20 l tank to 3 bars, and stops. Cuts back in at 1.5 bars. I've reduced the outlet dia to 19 mm hose, plenty water at pressure for a shower if that was the aim. There is a thermal protection which switches the juice off above a certain t° level, deemed to be synonomous of water shortage at the pump. This feature includes a timer, so the pump restarts auto after 5 minutes...
Re: re: Designing an efficient domestic water supply system.
Unbalanced wrote:Hi Fletcher,
If you don't want to spend for a GPS or an altimeter you can get a pretty accurate elevation from Google Earth. I was just looking down on your place and it appears as though the elevations have been measured by satellite based radar. The lagoon shows zero and you can swing your cursor over your bores and get a very close reading.
Are your wells inland of the Hibiscus Hwy? Will you have to run your lines under the road?
If you are just now getting electrical utility what type of generation plant have you been running... I'm guessing a two-lung Lister or Honda.
I actually had also looked at google earth for elevations - the resolution at my place is poor [at least with the photo I'm seeing, you maybe seeing a newer one ?] - so I can't see with any detail in close.
I also had googled gps's - most said that they weren't particularly accurate for elevation - couldn't find a digital or analogue altimeter yet - may have to buy one over the net - the other alternative I can think of is to use a couple of old fashioned methods.
1. take a builders level - sight it from tree to tree down the creek [can't see directly to the horizon over the sea] - using a tape measure to measure the drops in height & sum them up.
2. use a clear hose water level - go down the creek & use a tape to measure the drops etc.
Both these methods would work but take some time & patience but I may have no alternative at the minute.
Yes, the wells are inland of the highway - fortunately there is an under road culvert near my house that I can pass a pipe thru.
I don't live on the block Curtis - bought it 7 years ago & did a little work on it on holidays once or twice a year - moved to Suva [on viti levu] 10 months ago with the family & get across a lot more often now & have some momentum going - there was no grid electricity, water & a gravel main road - so I concentrated on infrastructure - first, to find reliable water, then I & a neighbour funded the community contribution for a government extension to the mains grid to the end of my place [6 km extension] - with the improvement of infrastructure & servicing & a little gentle lobbying for this tourism growth area we received the good news that the main road will be upgraded for 30 km's & sealed the first 10 km - my place is 4 km's off where the current seal & power ends - the contractors are doing a design & build for the latter 20 kms [engineered, tendered & quoted on my section] - they have set up camp & have started, so timing is good - so to answer your question, we didn't have a house there till recently & rented accommodation nearby when over there but now mains power is important for future plans - our main house will be built on WaiKona Point at a later time & we'll use the guest house until I can afford to build it.
P.S. the trade winds are due to start about now - they come in at about 30 degrees off the beach - I've always liked the idea of kite boarding after a trip to Anse Vata in Noumea 10 years ago - I think our place would be ideal - 3 or 4 km's back & forth in the protected lagoon no more than a few hundred yards from the shore - a kite boarder friend back in NZ is keen to come over & give it a try - he writes occasional articles for travel mags so might get some good publicity about its potential.
Thanks Nick for you experiences - we may set up some rentable bures [chalets] at a later date [my caretakers house was my first attempt at a bure design improved & upgraded for the guest house] - more budget self help end than high end stuff - we have neighbours & friends who do that & it can be a mill stone as you say - some interesting guests very often that I wouldn't mind sharing a beer or two & some fish on the bbq with so it might not be all bad.
Whatever I end up doing with the pump I will try to keep it away from where I have to hear it as I know what its like - it has to be reasonably close for security etc.
Your idea of a large reservoir then multi feeds off it to the lots is a good one - I'd probably take a large feed down the internal road then branch off - each owner can run their own booster pump which they could switch between community supply & on-site rain water collection - usually people build concrete tanks under their decks etc.