2 rlortie

[ovyyus]

Reticon, based on eyewitness accounts of the load tests it doesn't seem plausible that the wheel was driven by wound up springs. Wagners best effort at solving the wheel fell well short of being able to replicate Bessler's demonstrations. There appears no spring-wound solution up to the job. Therefore, the energy source inside Bessler's wheel (there must be one) could not have been wound up springs -or- the eyewitness accounts are wrong.

[DrWhat]

Bessler did push down on a spring which clicked or snapped back/into place during one of his demonstrations. And this is worrying.

Also his public demonstrations seemed to be short term and the lifting seemed to use the momentum of the wheel to provide a quick lift.

I still believe he may have been genuine, but some aspects give me mild suspicion.

Also we cannot discount Bessler using a fuel source. He dis state that if things wore out then the wheel would stop. Perpetual until things wore out.

A fuel source (whatever that was) will eventually wear out.

[path_finder]

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 1956#81956

[ovyyus]

path_finder, even if some kind of starting spring was used by Bessler, we still have no energy source. Without an energy source the wheel won't turn.

[bluesgtr44]

thanks, I'm glad to know I'm still welcome here. I sure hope I'm wrong. Remember, my suspicion is that he was quite a clever clock maker and that he probably used dozens of these spring loaded cylinders. Perhaps he even perfected them so that he could twist them to recharge the springs? A contraption that caused the wheel to "break" when it actually ran out of energy? Though for many of the lifting demonstrations I'd still favor a theory with more human intervention.

I personally think you left out one of the most important and tangible factors as to whether or not Bessler was a fraud.....Karl! I put this up recently in another thread....

Welcome to the next level of madness, PF. These are some excerpts from Professor Christian Wolff about the wheel. He witnessed the Merseburg wheel...the first bi-directional wheel. This report was prepared for the Czar of Russia, Peter the Great......from AP, pg.114...J. Collins

"...Furthermore there is the testimony of the Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel, who is experienced in evaluating mechanical inventions and had seen the internal mechanism of the wheel and ran it for many weeks in a locked room, keeping the keys himself, having personally locked and sealed the doors and windows with his own seal. He testified both verbally and in an officially printed certificate that the movement of the wheel was caused by nothing more than the weights and this it would run continuously unless the internal structure of the wheel was altered."

And in this same letter, we can see that they were just starting to graze the effects of gravity......

"....But the force which drives the weights, does not come from the machine itself, rather it comes from some fluid, invisible matter by which the movement of the falling weights becomes faster and faster. Orffyreus whole invention consists of an artful arrangement of weights, in such a way that they are lifted when at rest and aquire force during their fall, and in my opinion it is this that he keeps secret. This is also consistent with what Orffyreus says, that anyone could easily understand his invention, as soon as he is allowed to look into the wheel."

What I get from this and other information, especially concerning Karl...is that there wasn't really a whole lot to this. Not that this would be an overall bad thing, but if it really had a chance of providing viable amounts of power/energy...I would think that the zest and zeal of this campaign by Karl would have been done long before. He had the finances to do this himself. His reputation was such that having seen the inside and really been impressed, he could have put together a consortium himself and not have to have put up the whole amount himself......he didn't! This is very telling in so many ways to me........it was that damn simple! He knew it couldn't be contained from the masses.


Steve

The information available on Karl seems to show that he was an honorable and intelligent man. I find it very difficult to believe that he could have been hoodwinked by the likes of Bessler. You may disagree with my synopsis as to why he didn't seem to be as invested in the urgency of promoting the wheel, but to think he would even be a part of deception of this low, low level is something I would have a serious problem with.

Karl is what puts it in the "yeah, he figured out a way" camp for me. But, it also leads me to believe that there were some limitations and considerations to this astonishing discovery that minimalized it's impact in comparison to the Savery-Newcomens of the time. Basically, I simply believe Karl!


Steve

[bluesgtr44]

Bessler did push down on a spring which clicked or snapped back/into place during one of his demonstrations. And this is worrying.

Also his public demonstrations seemed to be short term and the lifting seemed to use the momentum of the wheel to provide a quick lift.

I still believe he may have been genuine, but some aspects give me mild suspicion.

Also we cannot discount Bessler using a fuel source. He dis state that if things wore out then the wheel would stop. Perpetual until things wore out.

A fuel source (whatever that was) will eventually wear out.

Bill wrote...

path_finder, even if some kind of starting spring was used by Bessler, we still have no energy source. Without an energy source the wheel won't turn.

I still think that he may have used some spring type of arrangement to simply push the path to one side, thus the +1 of positive pressure that was constantly applied and made the one way wheels in need of being tied off. This would also provide that initial impetus that an arrangement of the approach Jim_Mich is utilizing with CF.

This would not be a power source, just that push or nudge that would be needed to start the whole thing. Something has to maintain a particular path, would it not?


Steve

[AB Hammer]

I also agree with Steve

I believe Bessler did it. There is just to much evidence to ignore. But if he did pull a fraud, it was a whopper still effecting us today.

Alan

[Reticon]

"I believe Bessler did it. There is just too much evidence to ignore. But if he did pull a fraud, it was a whopper still effecting us today."

Definitely on the same page there.

Karl is pretty key, but like I said, Bessler built something that was meant to be seen. In fact, his plan could have included how long it would take for them to realize it was not going to keep going. It's nice to defend my current hypothesis since it reminds me of why I really took this so seriously for so many years. It would be a WHOPPER. Urban legends will naturally acquire lots of fictional testimony as they are relayed over the years. This one has had many years. Is Karl's testimony even a matter of fact? I've already demonstrated that my CURRENT conclusion includes assuming it was real, but are we sure? I just know that his "surprise" that someone hadn't discovered it sooner seems to tell me that he didn't know what was really happening. If Bessler's cylinders where capsules containing compressed springs that released a metered bit of energy with each slap (like a primitive compressed air cylinder) but arranged like any of the MTs then Karl may have believed the arrangement was the source and missed the trick.

Did I mention that I also got fooled into buying a mexican jumping bean toy that danced to music? I stared at that thing for half an hour trying to figure out how they made it respond to voice commands and I just had to find out. So $6 later, it was just a stupid piece of invisible string, and a stage arranged perfectly to hide it! The salesman's girlfriend, dressed and behaving like she was just hanging out and bored, was actually pulling on the string from inside the pocket in her hooded sweatshirt.

[Timothy]

The more my builds fail, the more I doubt Bessler.

And yet, the feel of the thing, wanting to turn, saying, "Just a little tweaking here, a little alteration there..."

Churchill said the following about writing a book, but it applies equally to wheel building: "To begin with, it is a toy and an amusement; then it becomes a mistress, and then it becomes a master, and then a tyrant."

As far as Bessler and PM go, I have adopted the philosophy of Buddha:

Doubt everything. Find your own light.

[ovyyus]

This would not be a power source, just that push or nudge that would be needed to start the whole thing...

Steve, without a power source we can get as clever as we want, with any number of springs and tricky mechanics, but the thing still has no chance of running. Fundamentally, Bessler's wheel is not a problem in mechanics. Without a power source there can be no life, no matter how we shape that piece of clay.

[bluesgtr44]

"I believe Bessler did it. There is just too much evidence to ignore. But if he did pull a fraud, it was a whopper still effecting us today."

Definitely on the same page there.

Karl is pretty key, but like I said, Bessler built something that was meant to be seen. In fact, his plan could have included how long it would take for them to realize it was not going to keep going. It's nice to defend my current hypothesis since it reminds me of why I really took this so seriously for so many years. It would be a WHOPPER. Urban legends will naturally acquire lots of fictional testimony as they are relayed over the years. This one has had many years. Is Karl's testimony even a matter of fact? I've already demonstrated that my CURRENT conclusion includes assuming it was real, but are we sure? I just know that his "surprise" that someone hadn't discovered it sooner seems to tell me that he didn't know what was really happening. If Bessler's cylinders where capsules containing compressed springs that released a metered bit of energy with each slap (like a primitive compressed air cylinder) but arranged like any of the MTs then Karl may have believed the arrangement was the source and missed the trick.

Did I mention that I also got fooled into buying a mexican jumping bean toy that danced to music? I stared at that thing for half an hour trying to figure out how they made it respond to voice commands and I just had to find out. So $6 later, it was just a stupid piece of invisible string, and a stage arranged perfectly to hide it! The salesman's girlfriend, dressed and behaving like she was just hanging out and bored, was actually pulling on the string from inside the pocket in her hooded sweatshirt.

I have been over all the information I can possibly get my hands on. I have specifically poured over this information to see what the motivation was for so many people of such high standing at the time saw no possible path of deception that could have been implemented in these demonstrations. Now, I know we have all seen some great magicians and illusionists that could make us question as to whether something like that could have been tried. But, I just can't believe that so many witnesses with the credentials most of these had....and in the face of Gartner, Wagner and Borlach being huge, huge detractors...respected names of that time also....and there was still this enormous swell of support for Bessler.

Is Karl's testimony really fact? How can we know? But he did see, witness and testifies that he understood how the device worked!....a carpenters boy would be able to manufacture this without a lot of headscratching. It wasn't all too complicated. This man's history is nothing short of honorable for his time. He didn't need the money....he didn't need the publicity....he did have a love for the arts of mechanics. He damn sure wasn't a fool by any account. I think he kept his word and was simply not overwhelmed as to the rewards this particular device would reap any discoverer and hence, he knew why Bessler wanted the money upfront and in full. Once the secret was out, there wouldn't be a lot of difficulty putting one up in your backyard.

We already know he could have afforded it on his own although it would have taken most of his wealth. He had a great deal of influence and loyalty that was well known. I see so many opportunities and coupled with the direct knowledge of having seen the device and knowing exactly how it worked....what happened? This man could have carried this to others and devised a consortium of investors for the "secret".........and he didn't! Now, here's the rub for me.....

If his reputation was as it is written and I have presented.....he couldn't have thought that highly of what he had seen, now could he? And it could be for more than one reason as I mentioned. If it wasn't difficult to make and the patent process was still pretty much non-existent in most areas, it would not be a prudent investment to present to others when one's reputation would seem to be much higher than that......as was Karl's.

Ret, where you think he may have been a fraud....I think what he had was just too simple and limited to be of any real value to the thinking of the time.


Steve

[Fletcher]

These are some excerpts from Professor Christian Wolff about the wheel. He witnessed the Merseburg wheel...the first bi-directional wheel. This report was prepared for the Czar of Russia, Peter the Great......from AP, pg.114...J. Collins

"...Furthermore there is the testimony of the Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel, who is experienced in evaluating mechanical inventions and had seen the internal mechanism of the wheel and ran it for many weeks in a locked room, keeping the keys himself, having personally locked and sealed the doors and windows with his own seal. He testified both verbally and in an officially printed certificate that the movement of the wheel was caused by nothing more than the weights and this it would run continuously unless the internal structure of the wheel was altered."

And in this same letter, we can see that they were just starting to graze the effects of gravity......

"....But the force which drives the weights, does not come from the machine itself, rather it comes from some fluid, invisible matter by which the movement of the falling weights becomes faster and faster. Orffyreus whole invention consists of an artful arrangement of weights, in such a way that they are lifted when at rest and aquire force during their fall, and in my opinion it is this that he keeps secret. This is also consistent with what Orffyreus says, that anyone could easily understand his invention, as soon as he is allowed to look into the wheel."

Steve

Steve .. when I read your post the other day I wanted to go read Wolff's letter again - are you sure it was AP pg 114 ???? - I can't seem to find it again - if its also on the wiki a steer in that direction would be appreciated.

[bluesgtr44]

This would not be a power source, just that push or nudge that would be needed to start the whole thing...

Steve, without a power source we can get as clever as we want, with any number of springs and tricky mechanics, but the thing still has no chance of running. Fundamentally, Bessler's wheel is not a problem in mechanics. Without a power source there can be no life, no matter how we shape that piece of clay.

Bill, as I see it now....I'm with Ya! The battery and starter are not considered the power source for cars is it? Something has to get it going and combustion takes over from there. This is all I mean by that....I have proposed this line of thinking a good while back ago. I admit that I considered this in line with what Jim has been working on for some time. It would have needed a jump start to get that first weight to swing into motion. With the one way wheels having to be tied off or they would just go kind of sets the scenario for something like that.

Now, if there isn't anything to be gained from CF after that initial push, then whether or not the +1 factor and the spring application wouldn't even matter anyway. Well, unless someone else comes up with another theory that just needs a "starter".


Steve

[aStillMoreGloriousDawn]

I remember reading something that said that right around the time that Bessler presented his wheel to Karl, Karl was in some sort of tax problem or other financial trouble and that was the reason he didn't pay Bessler himself. Sorry... it was many months ago that I read it so I can't give you the exact quote or location, but when I read it a red flag went up instantly for me. I'll try to search for it... Does anyone else recall anything like this?

[bluesgtr44]

These are some excerpts from Professor Christian Wolff about the wheel. He witnessed the Merseburg wheel...the first bi-directional wheel. This report was prepared for the Czar of Russia, Peter the Great......from AP, pg.114...J. Collins

"...Furthermore there is the testimony of the Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel, who is experienced in evaluating mechanical inventions and had seen the internal mechanism of the wheel and ran it for many weeks in a locked room, keeping the keys himself, having personally locked and sealed the doors and windows with his own seal. He testified both verbally and in an officially printed certificate that the movement of the wheel was caused by nothing more than the weights and this it would run continuously unless the internal structure of the wheel was altered."

And in this same letter, we can see that they were just starting to graze the effects of gravity......

"....But the force which drives the weights, does not come from the machine itself, rather it comes from some fluid, invisible matter by which the movement of the falling weights becomes faster and faster. Orffyreus whole invention consists of an artful arrangement of weights, in such a way that they are lifted when at rest and aquire force during their fall, and in my opinion it is this that he keeps secret. This is also consistent with what Orffyreus says, that anyone could easily understand his invention, as soon as he is allowed to look into the wheel."

Steve

Steve .. when I read your post the other day I wanted to go read Wolff's letter again - are you sure it was AP pg 114 ???? - I can't seem to find it again - if its also on the wiki a steer in that direction would be appreciated.

Hey Fletch...darn good to hear from ya!

I have the spiral version of John's book. I understand that the PDF version is a bit off on the numbering. It's the letter to Schumacher in response to a position with the Czar, Peter of Russia. In my version of AP, it's underlined as

"Impartial Comments on the Orffyrean Perpetuum Mobile, prepared for His Majesty the Czar, Halle, 3rd July, 1722". It is in part 1 b) about midway. But, yep.....in my version it is on pg. 114 and 115.


Steve