Bessler's Proof ?

[James.Lindgaard]

The attached drawing is something I always thought was a clue.
It might be, but it might also be Bessler's proof. He might have thought that even his supporters would be doubtful and left somethign that helps to illustrate some of his clues.
If you consider the weights relationship to the axle of the wheel, it would have 1/2 the force as it swinging from the pendulum. You know, 22.5 degrees vs. 45 dergees.
What was it Bessler said, one weight replaces another. This could be why the specific positioning of the weights.
The weight on the pendulum would be on the long lever, and the weight it is replacing would move towards the axle.
It may be that by knowing how using trigonometry helps to create simple relationships that allow a design as complex as his wheel to be so simple anyone could build it. Yet I do believe the quote was originally an insult, but to understand how simple mathematical relationships can uotline the design of his wheel would be for those of us who like math.

[James.Lindgaard]

@All,
Have been talking with Alexioco and will try and show why i believe the drawing is a "proof" for Bessler.
Myself, I do not have a place to build and will be having surgery...again.
I may be able to do a demonstration of the mechanics. Alex is the person who originally got me interested in trying to match specific mechanical behavior to Bessler's clues.
As Steve mentioned about a liquid metal being used, this is highly possible because as he would say, it's density.
And in Bessler's time,metal was expensive. it is possible that the iron for the axle was the only solid metal used.

Jim

[aStillMoreGloriousDawn]

James.Lindgaard -

I just purchased John Collins' digital version of Apologia Poetica and read the whole thing last night. On page 297 Bessler answers a question:

Ninthly:- “Am I able to guarantee that my workmanship will be
durable?�

Answer - were I to give such a solemn guarantee, I would have to
ensure that the main parts are made of the best iron, steel and
brass, even if a considerable amount of money is involved. Then
it will stay sound for a long time! In short, no matter what the
costs, they're not too high - especially when, as is the case round
here - metal isn't really that expensive.

And here on page 291: "I'd like, at this point, to give a
brief description of it. So then, a work of this kind of
craftsmanship has, as its basis of motion, many separate pieces
of lead. These come in pairs, such that, as one of them takes up
an outer position, the other takes up a position nearer the axle."



edited to add bold font

[DrWhat]

aSMGD please be aware that a translation depends on the translator.

Please review Stewart's posts for good quality translations. Although I see what you are saying.

[aStillMoreGloriousDawn]

Are Stewart's translations all in one place? It would be appreciated if you could direct me to it. Appreciation as well if you could post his translations for this portion of AP right here(if they are different).

[DrWhat]

Just go to 'memberlist' above. Find Stewart. Click 'view all his posts'.

Just looking for part of the translation...

[DrWhat]

Bessler talks about the weights being the essential & constituent parts which must endlessly exercise their their power & impetus, received from a motion - as long as they remain outside the center of gravity, that is !

Any OOB wheel will have power & impetus as long as something lifts & repositions the weights each cycle to create torque.

Yes, he clearly describes the weights as overbalancing weights, and yet also says how important they are - "...these weights themselves are the perpetuum mobile, or essential and constituent parts of it,...". I know we often talk here of the wheel having an overbalance system and perhaps a secondary "prime mover" system, but this description makes me think there is less of a distinction between the two. It seems from this description that the overbalance (gravity) aspect is considered by Bessler to be vital to the operation of the machine, rather than just a simple way to turn a wheel using a totally separate energy source. It's also interesting that he says the weights receive their power and impetus from the "universal motion", i.e. a single weight receives its power/impetus from the motion of all the weights combined or the motion of the whole machine. Anyway, I've got some more thoughts on this text, but I'll wait until I've finished the Latin translation and then talk about it in more detail perhaps in another topic.

Daxwc - you gave three quotes where Bessler talks about calculation. In the second one where you've quoted "tremendous amount of calculation", Bessler actually says "speculation". Here's my draft translation of that part (AP, Part I, Chapter LIV [54], Pages 116-117):

For when I will publicise,
one will soon hear among the ignorant people:

You people behold the true work,
there is indeed not much art to it. &c.

Be quiet you blockhead stop your babbling,
and bear no displeasure/dislike,
I have speculated with might,
before I even conceived such a work,
and refined [it] for some time,
before I devised it so simply;
indeed now it is in such a state,
that a bad craftsmaster's hand
will without any great brain-racking
weld/put the things together,
and (before one knows it,)
the construction of the work can have happened;
also in doing so nothing at all
will feel too elaborate to calculate,
besides, if also the preponderance*
will not be equal everywhere,
(so that in many places one may count
many an ounce [here], that may lack there,)
the work will still retain its motion,
and mind not a jot:
all this seemed best to me;
you master craftsmen, honourable people
will, God willing, in the meantime
go to work with more pleasure. &c.

*Uberwucht = preponderance / overweight / excess (of) weight / overbalance

Once again Bessler says 'Uberwucht' in reference to his overbalancing-weights and says they don't all need to be exactly equal.

For the last quote see the following post:
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 6028#46028

Stewart

[DrWhat]

This probably isn't exactly what I was looking for but gives you a feel for accurate translating and the way Bessler wrote.

Racing to work so no time to look further.

Damian

[aStillMoreGloriousDawn]

No prob. Thanks.

[bluesgtr44]

@All,
Have been talking with Alexioco and will try and show why i believe the drawing is a "proof" for Bessler.
Myself, I do not have a place to build and will be having surgery...again.
I may be able to do a demonstration of the mechanics. Alex is the person who originally got me interested in trying to match specific mechanical behavior to Bessler's clues.
As Steve mentioned about a liquid metal being used, this is highly possible because as he would say, it's density.
And in Bessler's time,metal was expensive. it is possible that the iron for the axle was the only solid metal used.

Jim

Jim, I never said anything about a liquid metal being used. You did ask me about "fluid" and I pointed out that I thought he was using it as an adjective and not a noun.......basically, to describe the movement as being "fluid". Other than that, I can't think of him ever referring to using a liquid metal of any sort being used.....and yes, he does mention mercury but as a clue in that silly little poem of his.


Steve

[bluesgtr44]

James.Lindgaard -

I just purchased John Collins' digital version of Apologia Poetica and read the whole thing last night. On page 297 Bessler answers a question:

Ninthly:- “Am I able to guarantee that my workmanship will be
durable?�

Answer - were I to give such a solemn guarantee, I would have to
ensure that the main parts are made of the best iron, steel and
brass, even if a considerable amount of money is involved. Then
it will stay sound for a long time! In short, no matter what the
costs, they're not too high - especially when, as is the case round
here - metal isn't really that expensive.

And here on page 291: "I'd like, at this point, to give a
brief description of it. So then, a work of this kind of
craftsmanship has, as its basis of motion, many separate pieces
of lead. These come in pairs, such that, as one of them takes up
an outer position, the other takes up a position nearer the axle."

Hi Dawn.....AP is one of the harder ones to make sense of to me. I think it's because he chose to use a prose style of writing it which causes him to find words that rhyme instead of the best word to describe what we are after. I think that was his intent, I just don't care for it myself.....I like DT much better!


Steve

[aStillMoreGloriousDawn]

Thanks Steve. I haven't read the others yet because I am kind of new to this. I was going to read them in the order that Bessler wrote them, but I figured I would read AP first because it is referred to so often. I'll look into DT sometime soon!

I was just commenting on Lindgaard's notion that Bessler didn't use solid metal in his wheel, which to me, Bessler states quite clearly that he did!

[jim_mich]

Dawn,

Just ignore everything that James.Lindgaard writes. He makes a habit of twisting other peoples words to suit his own twisted meaning.

[aStillMoreGloriousDawn]

You're right, Jim. I just don't think it's fair for other newcomers to have their time wasted by the twisted words in question. Although, my day off is being wasted as I correct them.

[jim_mich]

Dawn,

That is what the reputation system is for, to help newcomers know who's opinion and knowledge to trust and who to disregard.