What if Bessler had revealed his wheel?

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Mark
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re: What if Bessler had revealed his wheel?

Post by Mark »

Jim wrote:I wonder, why invent the internal combustion engine requiring fuel if there was a Bessler's wheel?

I wonder, why invent electric motors requiring expensive electricity if there was a Bessler's wheel.
Just off the top of my head... power factor - output vs. size.
I doubt a Bessler wheel could be made powerful enough and small enough to be able to drive a locomotive.


edit --
Having pondered your post and my response, I want to say, please disregard the above dribble.
When I first read what you wrote, I was thinking it was all tongue in cheek. But what you wrote at the end confused me (was it all serious?), so I just answered in my usual smart-ass way. I apologize.
I know that you're aware of the size vs. output issue, as well as the fact that all the things you mentioned would have been invented sooner or later. But I think I get your point. So, to answer your question at the end of that post... I firmly believe that today, it would help mankind. Just as I believe that any 'stagnation' would certainly have been temporary.
Last edited by Mark on Fri May 13, 2011 6:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bill_Mothershead
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re: What if Bessler had revealed his wheel?

Post by Bill_Mothershead »

Don't chop much wood here in the desert of Arizona.
But I did like this video I came across a while back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vThcK-idm0
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re: What if Bessler had revealed his wheel?

Post by Timothy »

Please accept this clarification: there was no tree of "knowledge" in the garden. There was a tree of life and a tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Science is neither good nor evil it would seem, but rather how it is used by the flawed human beings who "chose poorly" and partook of that fruit.

I am taken aback by the pessimism over what would have occurred if Bessler had revealed the workings of his wheel. Why then do we seek it? It is almost as if we would be unleashing some scifi future-altering monster on mankind. Are we better equipped morally to handle that knowledge than before?

How science is used is, at heart, a moral issue.

Someone on the board used to have a logo about beer being the cause and the solution to all his problems. Sounds like a theory worth testing right now.
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Post by DrWhat »

I think if the fuel is there people are going to use it considering the power output you can get, say from gasoline, or wood.

It is only when the consequences of it's use become dire that alternatives are used.

So if peak oil has been reached then we start to look at alternatives. If the world gets over-polluted so we cannot breathe, then we look at alternatives. There are no trees left and no orangutans left we look at alternatives (on the other hand many don't give a !@#$!).

Bessler's wheel probably would have been just one alternative. But in our day and age it would be of significant value especially if the method can be improved and output increased.
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re: What if Bessler had revealed his wheel?

Post by FunWithGravity2 »

Niagra and Hoover provide "huge" amounts of FREE energy, yet somehow the operating expenses are so high that energy prices are comparable with everyone elses rate. Wind provides FREE energy, yet i'm not aware of anyone living near a windmill that doesn't have to pay more. They are proposing a wind farm near us and rates will go UP. Imagine the support for that.

Yet if you live in alalska you get a check every year because so much money is made from oil. NO taxes and a check from oil. Does anyone in upstate NY get money because Niagra makes so much money?????


Some small country will decide its worth their future, some country in need and not overrun with greedy capitolists, They will adapt and be 100% independant,using gravity as fuel. (like brazil with its ethanol) and the rest of us will go on consuming believing that its just to tough to be FREE.

Ignorance is bliss


Crazy DAve
Si mobile in circumferentia circuli feratur ea celeritate, quam acquirit cadendo ex
altitudine, quae sit quartae parti diameter aequalis ; habebit vim centrifugam suae
gravitati aequalem.
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re: What if Bessler had revealed his wheel?

Post by chap »

I heat my house entirely with wood, but I prefer to use old pallets that would otherwise be going to a landfill.

I use an electric chainsaw that is powered by my solar setup. Unfortunately, it only powers my garage at this point in time.

The added bonus of pallets is the nails I collect and cash in at the scrapyard, right now they pay approx, $10.00 for a 5 gallon bucket.

I also like the fact that they are already seasoned and heat treated to be bug free, so I can store months worth in my basement.

My stove is homemade and 45" long, so I don't have to do a lot of cutting to get "stove length"!

Chap
erick
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Re: re: What if Bessler had revealed his wheel?

Post by erick »

Neo wrote:Jim I think the world would definitely be a better place. With free abundant electricity mankind would be free from fossil fuels,free from endangering the environment and its inhabitants. Free to recycle every last resource and most importantly raise up the poor from their slums because the cost of everything would go down tremendously. The energy needed to maintain any facility 24 hours a day would be possible without the worry of losing power. The appearance of our cities and towns would change as powerlines could now be buried out of sight. All things powered by electricity as Tesla envisioned would finely come to pass. The Electric Age...
I agree that all of these things would be good for humanity but as with everything in life though there is always a flip side. Nothing is ever all good or all bad. If humanity had unlimited access to electricity it would almost certainly lead to all of the things that you list but with that comes longer life expectancy, decreased infant mortality, population explosion, the sprawl of human development into currently unpopulated areas, the irrigation of desserts, the possibilty of screwing up the worlds ocean eco-systems through the gradual desalinization of the oceans for water purification purposes, etc...

That is not to say that ours is not a noble pursuit. I think it's just important to realize that a World without problems will never exist regardless of whether or not we ever figure out this mystery.

E
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Re: re: What if Bessler had revealed his wheel?

Post by erick »

FunWithGravity2 wrote:Niagra and Hoover provide "huge" amounts of FREE energy, yet somehow the operating expenses are so high that energy prices are comparable with everyone elses rate. Wind provides FREE energy, yet i'm not aware of anyone living near a windmill that doesn't have to pay more. They are proposing a wind farm near us and rates will go UP. Imagine the support for that.

Yet if you live in alalska you get a check every year because so much money is made from oil. NO taxes and a check from oil. Does anyone in upstate NY get money because Niagra makes so much money?????


Some small country will decide its worth their future, some country in need and not overrun with greedy capitolists, They will adapt and be 100% independant,using gravity as fuel. (like brazil with its ethanol) and the rest of us will go on consuming believing that its just to tough to be FREE.

Ignorance is bliss


Crazy DAve
I live in upstate NY and I do see a savings on a monthly basis from hydro-electric power from Niagara Falls. It's a small amount, maybe $10 or so a month but it certainly isn't more for us to get our electricity from hydro power. There is also a sprawling wind farm in the mountains close to my house. I think it's something like 100 turbines total. I have heard conflicting reports about whether or not it is more or less cost effective than traditional fuel. Either way I believe the difference is marginal and to me is therefore worth to possibility of the extra expense.

E
Trevor Lyn Whatford
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re: What if Bessler had revealed his wheel?

Post by Trevor Lyn Whatford »

Hi there,

There is another option, What if Bessler had revealed his wheel? he may have been exposed as a fraud, well it is a option, and at this time I would give it 40% to 60%, 60% he was genuine!

Regards Trevor
I have been wrong before!
I have been right before!
Hindsight will tell us!
FunWithGravity2
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re: What if Bessler had revealed his wheel?

Post by FunWithGravity2 »

Erick, IMHO your electricity should be alot cheaper, Niagara has certainly made many people very rich. I don't know much about the history of Niagara but i do know some of the local history of POWER in our area.

Thousands of acres are owned in our state by power companies, some has been donated(generous) to the state(probably to get tax breaks) but most of it was stolen from the indians hundreds of years ago. Most of the conglomerates are sitting on billions of dollars worth of property that they might one day use for something, nuclear ETC(gravity)who knows, but right now they don't care. They grabbed it cheap many years ago because they could.

Try and do that today, the odds are so stacked against any new emerging technology that the powers that be determine what happens. If they think they can take it and make money, they will, when they want. Until then i dare anyone to try and make a dent.

The wind farm issue we are having has been going on here for years, it will be offshore and unperceptible, it will be 15 miles out and visibility averages 10 miles in that area but someone thinks they will see it. YADDA yadda, the story is always the same.

We do have several small towns and business' that have put up commercial turbines and are beggining to sell it back, one town had an average annual Electric bill of 300K and now is operating with a profit from selling it back. Same goes for the local business' that are doing it.

CHAP

I applaud your efforts and wish myself and many others would do the same. Its out their but it seems to me that society as a whole has become complacent about energy consumption. I grow a majority of my own food, and venison supplements my commercially bought meat. But 150 years ago we were much more independant in that regards. It would seem that we are not much differnt than most wild animals. Once you start feeding/clothing and warming us we forget how to do it ourselves.

I think that will be my last bit of input on the subject, i am sort of playing devils advocate to myself. I am entirely of the belief that gravity will become accepted and will become at some ppoint in time a viable energy source that helps save the planet. But i don't believe it will lighten the loads on anyones wallets or that it would have changed much.

Anything can and will be made profitable by those that have the ability to do so.

A magnifying glass and a hot plate can boil water but cholera/bacteria effects most of the third/fourth world. Gravity power would be just as inaccesible. Not the way it should be, but its reality.


dave
Si mobile in circumferentia circuli feratur ea celeritate, quam acquirit cadendo ex
altitudine, quae sit quartae parti diameter aequalis ; habebit vim centrifugam suae
gravitati aequalem.
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re: What if Bessler had revealed his wheel?

Post by Timothy »

Concerning whether or not we have reached "peak oil": there is enough easily accessible oil in the oil sands of Alberta, Canada to fuel the entire planet for 100 years.
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Post by DrWhat »

Since more Australians are using solar power, the Power companies have told us they have to increase prices (and they have already done so) to take into account the loss of revenue from houses with these panels. Go figure!
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re: What if Bessler had revealed his wheel?

Post by getterdone »

Hi Tiimothy, peak oil did peak in 2006, just like King Hubbert had predicted 40 years ago. The peak oil argument is about conventional oil, the tar sands, and the off-shore oil are considered none conventional and they've been filling the gap and keeping up with growing demand.

Your right about the tar sands containing enough oil to keep the planet going for a hundred years, but the way the oil is extracted now uses so much water that the experts don't think that they'll ever produce more than 3.5 million barrels per day ,with current methods.

There are new thechnologies being developed that will be a lot more enviromently friendly and allow for much more oil to be extracted, but it'll take 200 dollars a barrel to make them profitable.

I met my friend nneba , on one of these projects
Beer is the cause and the solution of all my problems.
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re: What if Bessler had revealed his wheel?

Post by pequaide »

For gravity machines to be effective there must be significant mass. That would limit their use to power plants; ships and maybe trains. But they could not be of use in boats; autos; tractors; etc; and certainly not in aircraft. The internal combustion engine would have been invented to fill this niche. What allowed the Wright Brothers to fly was their development of a light weight internal combustion engine.

Gravity machines would be little more than grinding mills if it weren’t for electricity. One of the biggest rivers in North America drops 22 feet at Sault Sainte Marie. But it wasn’t until Thomas Alva Edison that significant use was made of it. The indians didn’t use the drop of water to heat their homes; light their streets; or power electric cars. I think Bessler’s wheel would have gone pretty much unnoticed until the development of electric generators. But then the two inventions would explode in concert with each other.

I don’t’ think the American Midwest (Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, etc) or the East was cleared for fire wood. It was cleared for the land under the forests. I would guess that the vast majority of the wood was burned just to get rid of it. I am not sure the frontiersman saw himself as in search of energy; he was in search of food, and a home far away from a King. They were in search of Freedom.

Come to think about it; the search for energy is only a small part of what we are.
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re: What if Bessler had revealed his wheel?

Post by AldenPark »

Here is another perspective on the subject, "What if Bessler had revealed his wheel?"

Uncovering Wheel Wouldn't Reveal The Secret. I don't think that much of anything would have happened initially, if Bessler had revealed his wheel by uncovering it. See p. 226 of John Collins' 1997 book "Perpetual Motion: An Ancient Mystery Solved?" which says "... cast aside the mantle that conceals my wheel. But he shall be thwarted in his desires." If the wheel had been uncovered, many people could then have duplicated what they saw. They would be thwarted in their desires, as their wheels would not have moved like a Bessler wheel. The wheels wouldn't work by accelerating up to a steady angular speed. The people couldn't duplicate what they couldn't see. The covered wheel was just another layered ruse for protecting his real invention, which invention I think consisted of his ultra-low-friction roller bearings. They could not see within his roller bearing, but Bessler provided a type of peek within his bearing by his drawing at the end of his "Apologia" or rather at the end of his "Apologische Poesie und Poetische Apologie Von seinem MOBILE PER SE und PERPETUUM MOBILE". In essence, Bessler did reveal his invention in "Apologia", if we have eyes to see what he provided.

The Secret Was in The Ultra-High Quality Bearings. The real secret was how he curiously constructed or specially grew his ultra-low friction bearings. Uncovering his wheel for a long time might have caused some bad people to desire to steal his roller bearings. It might have become obvious that something else was going on. People might have had a clue of how to reverse engineer the construction of his bearings, if someone had stolen them, but I think Bessler had his own guards to guard the guards (who were guarding the wheel) to make sure that the bearings were not stolen (without making such a direct request to the guards).

Just try to build a tiny roller bearing without the use of any lubrication, as lubrication would absorb much energy. I think that it is theoretically possible for there to be almost only rolling without slipping of strong-tough metal upon strong-tough metal. If one does not believe the most basic point, one can put it to experimental tests. One can (for example) easily do a simple experiment to compare the times of a steel ball bearing rolling down a flat incline for the two cases: lubricated versus unlubricated. Which case is faster? What happens when one lubricates with more grease? Bessler could not have lubricated his bearings during the two extended portions of his long test when his wheel was continually operating within a sealed room. Neither is there any evidence that he lubricated them during the half way point. His tiny bearings were of low enough friction that they supported a massive wheel and still did not burn out.

Please don't confuse loud sounds/screeching noises coming from within Bessler's various ruse wheel distractions with the quietness within his bearings. It wasn't the bearings that made the loud noises.

Covering his wheel kept people from inquiring too closely what Bessler was really hiding. Despite Karl's promise not to reveal what he saw, Bessler took a chance when he showed it to Karl, that Karl would not inquire too carefully about what was really going on (beyond what he was being shown). That particular inner ruse layer apparently worked well. I doubt that Karl was an especially deep thinker about such things. Apparently Karl was fooled by seeing the internal weights hitting the inside edges within the wheel, and Karl apparently did not inquire by self-consideration/analysis any further about what was really going on. The internal weights hitting the edges effectively created an inner distraction protective layer for his real invention. And there was the proof right before Karl's very own eyes, as he saw it and it worked exactly as he was told that it would work (though maybe at a very slightly slower angular speed since the covering was off and there was a tiny bit more air friction). Apparently, Karl made a very bad assumption that if one were to build what he saw that it would work.

I suspect that what he saw was simply a series of wires with ends connected to the interior edges so that weights could slide or fall according to their constraint so as to take turns hitting the interior edges. Maybe the wires slightly sagged so as not to make much of a sound when gently hitting the other end when going back up. Any such sounds would have been well masked by the loud hitting noises, as other weights were stopped after falling. It was so simple that a carpenter boy could have built it -- but if anyone including a carpenter boy had built it, it would not have worked. Bessler put all sorts of other things in his wheels as distractions. To first order, it didn't matter much what he put within, as long as it had mass. That explains his claim of having invented so many perpetual motion machines. I am convinced that he directed the building of a very large number of such perpetual motion machines powered by gravity. His brother (while working on his wheel) built them inside of Bessler's wheels according to Bessler's instructions. They were all perpetual motion machines that worked when Bessler's very low friction roller bearings were used.

All wheels perpetually rotating require very low total rotational friction and work done otherwise they would stop. That is the first requirement. "Without such things ... all things will come to a standstill" according to p. 225 of Collins' 1997 book.

Any wheel rotating about a horizontal axis, with ultra-low total rotational friction, would become a Bessler wheel, "For greed is an evil plant." (p. 225 of Collins' 1997 book). To understand the appropriate level of low total friction need for a wheel, one should build/find a wheel that has such low friction that the wheel will not slow down when rotated about a horizontal axis. When one finds such a wheel with such a low level of friction, then one will also have found a modern day Bessler wheel, as it should also speed up to that angular speed from a low initial angular speed. How long can one get a wheel to rotate after giving it a gentle two finger push?

One might say that there does not exist such a low enough friction wheel, as all have friction. -- I would respond that Bessler had such a low enough total rotational friction wheel. Having such a very low source of friction, with enough mass in the wheel will allow it to more obviously tap into a source of rotational kinetic energy from the two-part gravitons available according to the Bessler principle. Even a low mass wheel with low enough friction, at low angular speed can partly draw upon that source. But with total rotational friction being too large, it would eventually come to a halt, having had tapped into the source but then losing that acquired rotational kinetic energy to friction. Upon any uncovering of Bessler's wheel, our coarse eyes would not see finely enough to see the rotating nuclear ground states within, acquiring much rotational kinetic energy from the many discrete two-part gravitons. AEP - 13 Mar 2011

See http://www1.iwvisp.com/LA4Park/GravitySummaryNews.txt and the associated figures for more information about Bessler's principle, more thoughts on explaining Bessler's words, and more ideas about constructing Bessler's very low friction roller bearings.
Alden E. Park, https://gravityunveiled.home.blog/ for free .pdf books: Gravity-Wheel Unveiled (GWU), Bessler's Little Book Decoded (BLBD), and A Book in Every Home Decoded (BEHD). Also see https://gravity-wheel.neocities.org/
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