Are we ready?

[Stewart]

I think that the economic change that a Bessler Wheel would bring wouldn't be a bad thing, but I'm not sure everyone would share this view. I know I would prefer a life where all my energy requirements were provided for free and I could live a self-sustained lifesytle. I know I wouldn't miss being able to buy certain material posessions for an indefinate period of time. I know I would survive and be happy, but how many others would? This device would cause a big change in the world - are we ready for it? Think seriously about all the implications and how it would affect you life and then vote above.

All the best
Stewart

[MrTim]

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here (so please don't take this personally.)
> When a working device is made, it will be ignored by most people. ("News of the day", then on to tomorrow's juicy story.)
> Probably one person out of 10,000 will actually build or buy one for their own power needs. (Sad to say, most people are just plain lazy. It's easier for them to write a check to the electric company than to go to any (perceived) trouble to generate their own power, even if it saves $$ in the long run. Plus, a lot of people rent too, so why go to all that trouble?)
> Big business will love it! Anything that cuts expenses (fuel costs, transportation of said fuel, etc. etc.) is a bonus. Note that the cost of your electricity will not drop at all. You will still pay the same. 300 million dollar power plants will not be obsolete overnight. That money has to be made up from somewhere (through amortizion), and it's not going to be at the expense of their stockholders!
> Patents. Said power companies will wait for your patent to expire, or simply get invalidated (they'll have the lawyers to find the loopholes) before they'll exploit the technology. And, see that previous point about amortization of costs. They have the time to waste.
> Coal miners will hate you. A good percentage of power plants burn coal, which will put these people out of work. In 'depressed' areas the effect will be much worse if there is no other industry available.
> Effect on the environment. Pollution free? Sure. But what happens when a cheap portable form of power is available? People will spread to previously uninhabitable (because they had no easy access to electricity) areas. More deforestation, exploitation of natural resources on an unimaginable scale, destruction of habitats for endangered species, etc. If you are a poor farmer in an underdeveloped country, "Saving the environment" means feeding your six children, not sparing rare trees on potential farmland.
> Liability. (I brought this up in another thread.) If somebody builds your machine, and their kid loses an arm or head in it, or gets electrocuted, you will get sued. Even if they are totally at fault (such as leaving off safety features, like the outer cover of the wheel for example), they will come after you. It is "your fault" for inventing such a dangerous device. You are famous, perceived as "rich" (even if you never made a penny off of it), and an easy target.
> The "raw deal". Even if you can independently produce your own power, you will still have to pay for it. California penalized people that took themselves off (or reduced their need of) the power grid. They had to pay a fee "because it was unfair for others to shoulder the cost of taking revenue away because you are producing your own power." (or something like that.) I believe they repealed that law, but there is no guarantee that it couldn't come back in some form or other, even on a national level.

Those are just a few implications to think about. There are consequences to actions (good or bad), which people will exploit to their advantage. I am not trying to scare you, chill your enthusiasm (or even critisize), just trying to make you aware of other possibilities that most people overlook.

MrTim
Devil's Advocate General's Office

[Jonathan]

Wonderful post MrTim. I'll see if I can counteryour arguements, numbers indicate which bullet I'm refering to (bullet as in '>'):
1.+2. I agree, most people are lazy and stupid.
3. I don't understand this one, it doesn't matter what the going rate for electricity is when you don't have to buy it from anyone. Unless you're assuming that there will be new free energy electric companies, which I'd be against, I'm for complete decentralization. If you all agree, then maybe that would be part of the Co-op or something, to advocate and educate about decentralized free energy.
4. As I've said before, and as your arguement supports, patents are not worth the trouble. They are hard and expensive to get, protect, and renew. As per the last part of #3, I think we'd want to get everyone to want their own household device, and to see if it will be simple enough that we can get them to want to make it themselves, so that there will be no demand for a O/U product and therefore no one will try to patent it, since the patent will then be of no use.
5. Coal mining is a risky business, we would be extending their lives by forcing them out of their jobs. They could go into another field of mining, but I think a O/U device would make such an uproar in the scientific community that if any of them have any interest or talent in science or maths, they would try to get jobs researching the newly opened fields there.
6. For a good time, the devices will almost undoubtably be not portable. So that will give the gov'ts of the world time to enact legislation and set up programs to protect the environment.
7. Again people are stupid. We will have to hope the courts will see this, because there ain't no way a bunch of idiots are going to sue me for inventing PM. An idea just occurred to me, though I don't know all the legal stuff, we could, upon making a successful device, set up a corporation and give all rights to the corporation. This corporation wouldn't do anything but sit there on paper, and we'd all be representatives of it. If someone sued for wrongful death/injury, the claim is brought up against the corporation, which might as well be a cardtable in a garage, and the only money they could get out of the corporation is what the repo men say the cardtable is worth. However, this is only something that has just popped into my head, and I don't know much economics or law, so that might be illegal or something.
8. Hopefully the courts will shoot down those laws as being unconstitutional. If not, California can send the fees as a write off to the corporation. :)

[murilo]

Yes, it's easy to see that the world will keep our same world after F-E been a reality. But, before that, there are very strong laws and rules in this game.I am preppared and of sure may other be. Our planet crys for a cure and for an opportunity to recover distroyed nature. The distroyer mankind is still confident and inconsequent in this mad job of environment changing. There is a name for this invoice, or bill, that the humans must pay, it's called *karma*, and there are almost impossible ways for to scape so as ''indulgences'' of it. There are not pardon for our ignorance and our colletive conscience has it's *authomatic ways of working*.
The guy that finds any system, clue or tip for any F-E will suffer and shock frontally with this reality and mechanism that is still playing and even getting harder. I'm pessimist, but one may never lose the faith in any possible superior compassion. I deeply hope that F-E will come soon and overcoming this status and things we are deserving. Best wishes to all of us. ( ''free energy'' will still cause heating in its application...) Murilo dec/18

[MrTim]

7. Again people are stupid. We will have to hope the courts will see this, because there ain't no way a bunch of idiots are going to sue me for inventing PM. An idea just occurred to me, though I don't know all the legal stuff, we could, upon making a successful device, set up a corporation and give all rights to the corporation. This corporation wouldn't do anything but sit there on paper, and we'd all be representatives of it. If someone sued for wrongful death/injury, the claim is brought up against the corporation, which might as well be a cardtable in a garage, and the only money they could get out of the corporation is what the repo men say the cardtable is worth. However, this is only something that has just popped into my head, and I don't know much economics or law, so that might be illegal or something.

No, you are about on target. The corporation is a 'legal entity' (but there are various types, each with it's own level of legal complexity and protections.)
Or you could just do what the roofer we sued did. Have everything you own in your wife's name and nobody can collect a dime from you (and hope she loves you enough that she won't dump you and take it all!)

[edit]

6. For a good time, the devices will almost undoubtably be not portable. So that will give the gov'ts of the world time to enact legislation and set up programs to protect the environment.

They aren't doing what they could (or should) be doing now. To expect them to do different in the future, well, don't expect it to happen!

[Jonathan]

I disagre with this:

They aren't doing what they could (or should) be doing now. To expect them to do different in the future, well, don't expect it to happen!

As the game plan generally is to rapidly go public with the infomation, and with demostrations, etc., There will be shockwaves in all societies. In the first twenty years, one would expect to see massive reorganization, or at least down-sizing, of world gov'ts because when many become self sufficient, and there is plenty for all, almost all forms of crime rates will drop. Want not, steal/murder/forge not. Of course crimes of passion will stay about the same, or possibly increase.

[Aatarr]

Consciousness is always ready for change. Personality traits and economic structures are another story. The Bessler wheel, although it doesn't have a lot of power will be a very good way to pave the way to a new paradigmatic belief system format where the old "That isn't possible" and "I can't imagine how" belief systems will dissapate. It is the kind of thing that most everyone will be able to comprehend easily once they see it and then there is no turning back. If some of the coercion stories listed with the Institute for New Energy and other rumors are correct, the people "running the show" want to keep it that way. It could be that they are only "annoyed" with successful, overimaginative inventors, but the idea of mass production of a fairly powerful device would be "unacceptable" to them. I can kind of understand-humans resist change, and who wants to lose their job?, unaddressed greed issues and so on, and the new economic shuffle will be a challenge to say the least. The human race has proved fairly resilient so far and I think we are up to the challenge. Strategy is the key word here. If "something" pops up all of a sudden in a way that there will be a quick change in mass consciousness on this issue, attempts by "unseen agencies" to blatantly stifle this new direction will reveal someones "true colors" and people will start pointing fingers (in a couple of different ways;) and I would seriously doubt that they would want that scenario. Of course there is nothing like a bunch of idealistic college students all over the world who won't take no for an answer. So, be positive and optimistic and our dreams will come true. Aatarr

[okaerinasaimase]

I agree with Aatarr.....there IS "NOTHING like a bunch of idealistic college students all over the world who won't take no for an answer." Your statements Aatarr, reveal something about your exhuberant idealism as well! May I surmise that you belong to the aformentioned selfsame group of college students? As a fellow idealist of sorts, I must say I agree with your oblique reference to a gravity system and it's likely evolution in our society. The release of such a system, properly managed, could produce the desired effects "just so." Afterall, the mechanical expression of such a principle as "gravity conversion" would require time and much work to become established as an adequate power source, even for smaller private entities. Hope in harmonious progression is a thing to behold.

Shinzen

[Nitro]

With out full support from the government, I think the chance of it making it to the mainstream would be limited.
Right now we have the wrong group in washington, They are after all oil men.
I think it would have to show case out side of the U.S. With a government that wants it released.
Now I'm not saying there's some big C. theory, But they would not fully support it.
But then again the government has done far worse things.
Just my 2/5ths.of a nickle.


P.S. Did everyone update there L.I. policy? :)

[MrTim]

....There will be shockwaves in all societies. In the first twenty years, one would expect to see massive reorganization, or at least down-sizing, of world gov'ts because when many become self sufficient, and ....

Ha Ha Ha! (Wipes tear of laughter from eye.) Sorry, but any form of 'free energy' will NOT reduce bureaucracy. It will only add a layer or two (or more.) Must regulate it to make sure it's not misused or anything, you know! At the local level most communities would make you pull a permit as you are 'improving' your property, much the same as installing a new fence or garden shed. Keep moving up the chain of government and each level will want it's 'cut'. The utility companies aren't going to stand aside as their customer base shrinks either. Look at all the obstacles put in the path of solar energy, and the California maneuver. They have the lobbyists and utility commissions in their pockets.
Yes, it will all come down to MONEY. Greedy people don't want any competition taking away what they plan to steal for themselves.
Now, If you want a sort of solution, you will have to be really sneaky and organised yourselves. Here's what you do:
Get laws passed at local, state, and national levels that prohibit or reduce penalties applied to people that produce their own power. Especially non-polluting forms. Do it (long) before the new form of energy production appears on the scene. Before the prospect of a new revenue source occurs to them.....

MrTim
Devil's Advocate General's Office

[Hmm]

MrTim your divergent, though valid, pessimism is appreciated. I would point out, however, that many states' and utility corporations provide subsidies to encourage solar and other "green" power systems. More and more small and large power consumers are realising advantages, monetary and otherwise, by implementing "free energy" systems already. A gravity system would be no different in that these systems would be cost prohibitive to purchase and install for most. I feel that a gravity system may be the perfect vehicle for mass acclimatization to truly inexhaustible "green" power. BTW, FWIW, anyone can obtain a subscription to "Green Power" magazine if they wish. A great "heads up" resource for the green tech neophyte.

P.S. I like your creative D.A.G.O. somebody should trademark it..... I can almost see the miasma of plethoric punditry now.....at the future http://www.DAGO.org

[Jonathan]

MrTim, I agree completly, that is what they'll try to do. However, given that these changes will happen fastest in democratic gov'ts, and given that it says in the constitution of democratic gov'ts that the gov't's power comes from the consent of the governed, if they do what you say, people will be pissed, and there will be protests and uprisings. So either they(bureaucrats) will forsee this and just do the right thing because they have to or they will be forced out of power and a better gov't will be put into place. If they're stupid, there'll be a second civil war, but it'll be worth it in the end.
The Change is coming, there is no escape. *X-files theme song* :)

[Trev]

The world has failed to grow enough food to feed itself for 4 years running now! The days of cheap oil are gone, the battle for the remaining reserves has begun. The world needs a new energy source that doesnt contribute to the greenhouse effect and quick.

[Jonathan]

Are you sure about the 4 years? I'd bet far more, since I think people have been starving in Africa for a long time. With the rest, I agree. If there is some far-ranging conspiracy that knows about free energy devices and suppresses them for their own gain, then the blood of the people who are dying of starvation now and will die in the upcoming world war caused by lack reasources is on their hands and the hands of those learned people who do have the time and money but refuse to do the research.
Then again, maybe free energy is impossible, in which case it will be everyone's fault for living too long and having too many kids. :)

[AgingYoung]

Wonderful post MrTim. I'll see if I can counteryour arguements, numbers indicate which bullet I'm refering to (bullet as in '>'):
1.+2. I agree, most people are lazy and stupid.
3. I don't understand this one, it doesn't matter what the going rate for electricity is when you don't have to buy it from anyone. Unless you're assuming that there will be new free energy electric companies, which I'd be against, I'm for complete decentralization. If you all agree, then maybe that would be part of the Co-op or something, to advocate and educate about decentralized free energy.
4. As I've said before, and as your arguement supports, patents are not worth the trouble. They are hard and expensive to get, protect, and renew. As per the last part of #3, I think we'd want to get everyone to want their own household device, and to see if it will be simple enough that we can get them to want to make it themselves, so that there will be no demand for a O/U product and therefore no one will try to patent it, since the patent will then be of no use.
5. Coal mining is a risky business, we would be extending their lives by forcing them out of their jobs. They could go into another field of mining, but I think a O/U device would make such an uproar in the scientific community that if any of them have any interest or talent in science or maths, they would try to get jobs researching the newly opened fields there.
6. For a good time, the devices will almost undoubtably be not portable. So that will give the gov'ts of the world time to enact legislation and set up programs to protect the environment.
7. Again people are stupid. We will have to hope the courts will see this, because there ain't no way a bunch of idiots are going to sue me for inventing PM. An idea just occurred to me, though I don't know all the legal stuff, we could, upon making a successful device, set up a corporation and give all rights to the corporation. This corporation wouldn't do anything but sit there on paper, and we'd all be representatives of it. If someone sued for wrongful death/injury, the claim is brought up against the corporation, which might as well be a cardtable in a garage, and the only money they could get out of the corporation is what the repo men say the cardtable is worth. However, this is only something that has just popped into my head, and I don't know much economics or law, so that might be illegal or something.
8. Hopefully the courts will shoot down those laws as being unconstitutional. If not, California can send the fees as a write off to the corporation. :)

Interesting point Jonathan. I'll have to give it a little more thought.

Gene