Bessler Wheel Complete ( almost )

[........]

jim_mich notes

I'm not sure what you mean by 'fictitious forces' as it relates to just the wheel shell? I assume you mean inertial forces. I'm sure a 300 to 500 pound wheel would have enough inertial momentum to mask and smooth any pulsing of the weights.

Just my opinions. I could be wrong.




Richard..

..yes jim..this is exactly right...

it is possible that the many weights Bessler was seen, to have unloaded into a box...could have given mass to a wheel...

..often I am reminded...that Bessler claimed...(paraphrased) " oh that one..that was an entirely different principle of operation...

..Can we agree on this...we borrow from Bessler what suits are concept,...much the same way a zealot might build a whole theology around a single verse or chapter..?

..if this is the case...then I can see my error...in supposing a " very light shell?

richard

Richard,
While gasoline, diesel and hydrogen fueled cars all rely on internal combustion, electric motros do not. This is one reason why using an electric motor with an internal conbustion engine is called a hybrid. It uses a different principle.
Rather than relying on the expansion caused by igniting gasses in a cylinder and converting it into angular momentum (torque), it relies on opposing dielectric feilds using Ohm's law to convert a static electrical charge into a repulsive force causing a stator to rotate.
Do you consider it possible that when Bessler stated >> " oh that one..that was an entirely different principle of operation... << he was literal in his meaning ?

[/code]
edited to add my t is sticking

[Richard]

Now being gun shy and a bit wary...I'll address it this way..

..Dear Mr lindgaard; as you and I have had no bad blood between us I would be honored to address your query(s)

...In quoting Bessler I paraphrased, as I could recall, the essence of his statement only.

...because the words "principle of operation" (mine) whereas Bessler may have simply stated a different design...I can not make an informative reply to his intent..and therefore will not speculate..

none the less..I am agreeable to what you ask...can you find what Besslers Statement actually was?

richard

[........]

Richard,
It may kill any discussions of Bessler, but here is a link to his wheel of a different principle.
He understood hydraulics before it became a principle.
With the materials of his time, it may have been easier for him to build it then than someone today.
Seals would be the question.
In his day, overlapping leather would have helped seal the space between warped boards.
Today, it would require a more difficult soultion. You see, when leather is joined, it is thicker at that point. This allows a space between warped boards and yet the water (fluid) is still moved in one direction.
Bt the way, the trick with the water pump is the same as Mt 20, the lever works at a 4:1 ratio (again) meaning that the force it generates is less than the resistence it creates in it's counter torque. This is because as in Mt b20, the wheel rotates under the weight reducing it's resistence.
This is mentioned in the first page of Bessler when he mentioned it requires a discerning eye.
It seems I have that eye. I am not sure if I should aplogize for this. I have been told I should.
If so, then I am sorry.
Just my HO on 2 different solutions decribed in Bessler's drawings.
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4185

edited to add;
Richard, I've always liked discussing Bessler and his work. With people like yourself and others who have their own thoughts, this is where I have found the conversations most worth while.

[Richard]

...thank you..

..please give me a day or two so that I can form at least a plausible opinion..

..just this though...Bessler and Papin were contemporary...and if memory serves me correct...they were both together at some place and time..

Papin built the first "centrifugal" type pump...only he employed straight impellers...

If I were a betting man...I'd bet Bessler would have used wax seals...with any rigid overlayment...wood or metal

richard.

[........]

Hi Richard,
If he and Papin were contemporaries, it might be that Papin inspired him ?
If you look at the introduction page to this forum, there is a list. In it is
examinations. The second one referenced is at Meresburg (if I got that right)
in 1715. It states that the wheel was 11 feet in diameter and 1 foot thick.
Everybody always posts that his wheel were 3 or 4 inches thick. 1 foot
would be within what is needed for hydraulics. One aspect of using water is that
it would not let leather dry out. I think in his time wax was used to seal water containers.
I know at some point in history a metal was used. I'm not sure but it might have been lead.
In shipboard use, this caused disease as it contaminated the water.
With a lead weight, 3 or 4 inches thich is doable in the width of the wheel.
As for impellors, today they use a curvature to throw the liquid increasing it's force. ie., a greater psi is attained between the curvature of the impellor, it's rpm and the size ofit's eye.
I have worked with such pumps that can generate over 1300 psi. Gotta be able to lift safties ya know.
jIM

edited to add: thought I would mention that you have brought out information that would make someone consider Bessler possibly having an impact on the early stages of the Industrial Revolution. It is generaly considered to have started about 1850 with the patenting of the first steam locomotive. The reality is, about the time of bessler and Papin(thanks for the info), cotton was able to be imported to be imported to England and thread exported to England because it was spun 10 sppols at a time instead of one.

[Grimer]

2 Cents

First penny, 50 bucks says BA is Alden'
...
Crazy Dave

I agree. He rather gives himself away with reference to roller bearings plus interminably long paragraphs.

[jimmyjj]

Thanks for sharing your design it is good to c a well presented idea without all the bs goodluck. I personally find it hard to understand designs unless i build them physically or in 3d and can simulate or create some motion....it will take me some time to.get my head around your design :)

[getterdone]

It seems to be accepted that the 4 lbs cylinders that Bessler pulled from the wheel before transferring it to another stand were weights, yet I don't recall Bessler ever saying that they were. To the best of my recollection it was the witnesses that said that those were the weights.
Am I wrong.

I don't really think Bessler needed to say they were weights. I would have thought that was obvious to all concerned.

Grimer, after a few years of scraching my head over the Bessler mystery I don't consider anything obvious or absolute. Everything is in the gray area for me , no black or white .I question everything.

[Besslers Assistant]

Humble greetings to all,

I was told I would get a good response here and it is true,

First to Crazy Dave and Grimer, I am not Alden, though I have read his work. I do not know if it is a rouse by you guys or a handicap, but Bessler used a lot of literary traps and shears. I am fortunate (or unfortunate at the time) to have had an English teacher in secondary school who thought us how to figure out where a writer came from by the words and phrases he used in his/her poems and essays. I have kept it and have grown stronger in understanding metaphoric writings. I will tell you that Bessler is a master of the written word, he used a technique I call 'the leap frog'; which is, you take an idea and divide it into three parts, separated the parts and fill the gaps with directional speech. The directional speech however, is away from the original idea you are explaining, or you can use the always effective 'opposite topic', in our case it is religion and science. If the person is religious you confuse them with perfect logic, if scientific you stab them with religious doctrines. Either way the person comes out totally confused.

Others have referred to this as my design, it is not my design, this is what I have figured out per the instructions of Bessler. Two stage oscillation explains fully how a pendulum works, but I believe that Bessler saw this as just another mechanism. In all that I have read there is only one sentence where Bessler explains where the power comes from. Since Bessler did not put any pictures of the device he had to rely on explanations of the device, so someone could figure it out. But as in the time of Bessler (and it is true of Maxwell also) a scientist had to explain himself fully. We all know Bessler did not do this, for fear of greedy people stealing his idea. Since then the world has become much more greedy and has not learned anything. So the direction must change.

My goal is to come up with the exact design of Bessler's wheel, in which I came to understand, we have one year to complete ( the 300th year anniversary). Anyone can take this design and install electromechanical controls and it would work, but you would have to buy these parts and they are not cheap.

To Crazy Dave I take offence to your Second cent. And challenge you to enlighten me to the simplicity of this motion of timing of hitting a moving target. Not everything that glitters is gold, a pendulum has two motions, but we only see one, please look up two stage oscillation. (Dave my comments are one of vexation and will not last long.)

Last note: I am humbled by the views I got on this board.
Bye for now.

[path_finder]

Dear Bessler Assistant,
Many thanks for your last topic, very pertinent.

[Richard]

Dear Besslers Assistant...

..that you understand and might yourself employ...metaphoric writings...is reason,, for the reader to make this association; I.e. to your identity as that of alden..

you've much work in your design...do you still speculate on it?

[Besslers Assistant]

Dear Richard,
The design is not my own, it belongs to Bessler.

But I do speculate on the design, not on it working or not, but rather on the different ways you can change this design. I have found four different ways to change the design so far; i.e. the pump water up, to compress air, to lift a weight and generate electricity. The pure mechanical solution however, still eludes me, but I found you can use a hair trigger on the red arm of my drawing to release the centripetal force when it is at its highest. I do not know if the hair trigger mechanism was around in Bessler time (have to look it up). I do know clockwork mechanisms was around that time, so I am studying those to see where it leads me.

Bye for now.

[AB Hammer]

Besslers Assistant

I guess I will refer to it at the design. From what I have seen and cross referenced with my test I see some problematic effects but can not fully discount them either. I am not so certain that it fit Bessler's description, but it does fit the designs of the ponds of Count Karl. Which has been deemed a possible inside peek of the wheel. IMO and I believe Bessler stated that there where several ways to achieve a runner. But it would be nice to get one that fit all the descriptions of Bessler's wheel/wheels. This would clear Bessler's name of possible fraud.

I will leave the design you posted to others to hash over. I have my hands full with other possibilities.

Again thanks for posting.

[Grimer]

Bessler, Milkovic and the pursuit for Mechanical Overunity.

First off I live on Peswiki so most of my knowledge comes from the info that is on the site. The first article I read of Milkovic's two stage oscillator I was shure that in a year or two that his device would be self looped and we would have free energy. But to my dismay it never happened. Because of Professor Milkovic work I came upon the experiments of Boomtown laboratories. I followed every experiment and learned a lot from Mr. Raymond L. Head and his assistants. ...

I've resurrected this thread because in working towards an inverse version of the Gravity Pulse Motor (a version that uses pull of the Bessler pendulums rather than the push of the Keenie falling weights) I've realised why Raymond made his claim of generating energy from his version of the Milkovic pendulum.

This thread is the first in which Raymond's name crops up.

[Andyb]

BA, cool designs i like the 6 sided sprocket idea i see keel but i also see it being fairly light which is good,but it will not work there will not be a bashing on the fall side but i really think you are a very good designer some times we can be too cleaver i do it enough myself beesler said that this is so simple that you will kick yourself when you see it , that does say a lot to me ,all the best BA and thanks for sharing .Andy b.