8.
Why do you think M's Avalanche won't work as is?
What do you think your altered version improves compared to M's version?
You still have to move the links twice as fast over twice the distance up one side for the same distance you have the weights doubled...
An infamy: the Bessler secret discovered by a troll?
Moderator: scott
re: An infamy: the Bessler secret discovered by a troll?
Tarsier79,
Those are good questions.
As M designed it, all the weights/mass are on the same chain.
There is nothing to seperate the force/potential/mass of the weights.
By using a second Avalanche, the mass/weight/potential of the weights can have a cumulative effect.
It's true the weights on the Avalanche with the longer path will have to travel faster. This is where the potential of a in f=ma is considered as t or time.
What would happen is the a or acceleration/velocity of the weights working as the prime mover would slow. This slowing is compensated by the acceleration or faster velocity of the weights moving on the avalanche with the longer path. As such, the a in f=ma would average out to be a constant velocity for the mass being considered.
In Newtonian Laws of Motion, a is the acceleration of gravity which is 9.7 m/s/s or a constant velocity which is not considered to include momentum which would be mv^2.
Those are good questions.
As M designed it, all the weights/mass are on the same chain.
There is nothing to seperate the force/potential/mass of the weights.
By using a second Avalanche, the mass/weight/potential of the weights can have a cumulative effect.
It's true the weights on the Avalanche with the longer path will have to travel faster. This is where the potential of a in f=ma is considered as t or time.
What would happen is the a or acceleration/velocity of the weights working as the prime mover would slow. This slowing is compensated by the acceleration or faster velocity of the weights moving on the avalanche with the longer path. As such, the a in f=ma would average out to be a constant velocity for the mass being considered.
In Newtonian Laws of Motion, a is the acceleration of gravity which is 9.7 m/s/s or a constant velocity which is not considered to include momentum which would be mv^2.
Re: re: An infamy: the Bessler secret discovered by a troll?
.8........ wrote:Murilo,
Here is the basic idea. A second "chain" would be the "prime mover".
It would hold the weight's most responsible for generating force.
Then your existing set up would carry the weghts from bottom back to top again.
In the drawing, there are 7 weights as prime movers. There are 6 weights being lifted. Some of the other weights would generate some force.
I appreciate, understood and thank your hand.
Fact is that a change like this one is not imperative or strongly needed, since for me my original is ok, FOR NOW.
7 weights counter 6 is not a strong unbalance and the rise of the new chain is a question to deal.
Thanks again!
Best!
M
PS edition: I'm 100% convinced that a zigzag chain is enough good.
Re: re: An infamy: the Bessler secret discovered by a troll?
Tarsier,Tarsier79 wrote:8.
Why do you think M's Avalanche won't work as is?
What do you think your altered version improves compared to M's version?
You still have to move the links twice as fast over twice the distance up one side for the same distance you have the weights doubled...
I'm glad that you also 'got' my device.
Best!
M
Re: re: An infamy: the Bessler secret discovered by a troll?
Murilo,murilo wrote:.8........ wrote:Murilo,
Here is the basic idea. A second "chain" would be the "prime mover".
It would hold the weight's most responsible for generating force.
Then your existing set up would carry the weghts from bottom back to top again.
In the drawing, there are 7 weights as prime movers. There are 6 weights being lifted. Some of the other weights would generate some force.
I appreciate, understood and thank your hand.
Fact is that a change like this one is not imperative or strongly needed, since for me my original is ok, FOR NOW.
7 weights counter 6 is not a strong unbalance and the rise of the new chain is a question to deal.
Thanks again!
Best!
M
PS edition: I'm 100% convinced that a zigzag chain is enough good.
sorry u feel that way.
edited
Last edited by ........ on Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: re: An infamy: the Bessler secret discovered by a troll?
Tarsier ..murilo wrote:Tarsier,Tarsier79 wrote:8.
Why do you think M's Avalanche won't work as is?
What do you think your altered version improves compared to M's version?
You still have to move the links twice as fast over twice the distance up one side for the same distance you have the weights doubled...
I'm glad that you also 'got' my device.
Best!
M
There are two aspects to this.
1. Vertical Work Done relationship both sides of the device as you've said.
2. Simple leverage which shows a device in equilibrium/zero torque.
i.e. left side f1 x horizontal lever distance1 = right side f2 x horizontal lever distance2 as jim_mich outlined in detail long ago but which can not be accepted by a few - there has been ample opportunity to replicate this & prove the theory offered.
N.B. this is a lever in disguise - 'g' is the same for all components so it comes down to mass & distance from the imaginary fulcrum which is the vertical line between the pulley axles.
re: An infamy: the Bessler secret discovered by a troll?
Yes, I agree with you completely Fletcher. Both the points you make confirm eachother.
re: An infamy: the Bessler secret discovered by a troll?
8 puppets:
I thought Murilo had built it as there was even a picture of the build on the forum. Jim’s and Fletcher’s advice are spot on so it is up to Murilo to figure out how to learn and proceed. It is not Jim's or Fletcher's fault it does not run; one can wish all he wants.
.ifJim_Mich has disproven, let's see his build
I thought Murilo had built it as there was even a picture of the build on the forum. Jim’s and Fletcher’s advice are spot on so it is up to Murilo to figure out how to learn and proceed. It is not Jim's or Fletcher's fault it does not run; one can wish all he wants.
What goes around, comes around.
Dax,
Murilo did build his up to a point.
Someone claims they could have saved them the trouble if he listened to them.
I have 2 different thoughts on why more effort is put into why a design would not work.
One is what would everyone talk about ? They'd need to build working one's and that takes more effort than just talking about it.
The second is some people believe it's impossible and only give the impression they believe it is while explaining why people who try are wasting their time.
After all, if some people have tried for 50 years as they claim, do they really know anything ?
I think it would be fear of moving on even if a Bessler will was discovered. Then they would have to wonder how he did it. I guess if they had respect for him and his work, that would be okay. And even then, all the side discussions would not need to be stopped but probably would. You can wonder why.
edited to correct grammar and add, not sure, but some people like to say how they're going to power the world . Myself, I think a persons time would be better spent thinking of ways energy could be conserved. They might make on it while actually helping the planet. Even a more efficient electric motor would be worth a lot.
Murilo did build his up to a point.
Someone claims they could have saved them the trouble if he listened to them.
I have 2 different thoughts on why more effort is put into why a design would not work.
One is what would everyone talk about ? They'd need to build working one's and that takes more effort than just talking about it.
The second is some people believe it's impossible and only give the impression they believe it is while explaining why people who try are wasting their time.
After all, if some people have tried for 50 years as they claim, do they really know anything ?
I think it would be fear of moving on even if a Bessler will was discovered. Then they would have to wonder how he did it. I guess if they had respect for him and his work, that would be okay. And even then, all the side discussions would not need to be stopped but probably would. You can wonder why.
edited to correct grammar and add, not sure, but some people like to say how they're going to power the world . Myself, I think a persons time would be better spent thinking of ways energy could be conserved. They might make on it while actually helping the planet. Even a more efficient electric motor would be worth a lot.
re: An infamy: the Bessler secret discovered by a troll?
They are trying to help.The second is some people believe it's impossible and only give the impression they believe it is while explaining why people who try are wasting their time.
What goes around, comes around.
Re: re: An infamy: the Bessler secret discovered by a troll?
Tarsier,Tarsier79 wrote:Yes, I agree with you completely Fletcher. Both the points you make confirm eachother.
now I have to say that you no more understand my project.
Best!
Murilo
Murilo,
To much rubber stamping.
I am off work now because I had surgery again. When I return to work, will save money to rent a place I can use as a shop. There is something I want to build and having room to work in will make it much better experience.
I like your book on understanding women. My only concern is they might read it also and then change just to make thngs more complicated.
Do think your idea would be worth exploring if could be done in a simpler, less expensive way.
To much rubber stamping.
I am off work now because I had surgery again. When I return to work, will save money to rent a place I can use as a shop. There is something I want to build and having room to work in will make it much better experience.
I like your book on understanding women. My only concern is they might read it also and then change just to make thngs more complicated.
Do think your idea would be worth exploring if could be done in a simpler, less expensive way.
re: An infamy: the Bessler secret discovered by a troll?
.8
I wish you a very good luck and health!
Take a break for now.
Take care!
M.
I wish you a very good luck and health!
Take a break for now.
Take care!
M.
re: An infamy: the Bessler secret discovered by a troll?
Does understanding your project require a belief that it will work?now I have to say that you no more understand my project.
Although I can say with 100% certainty that it will not work, what I cannot understand is your unwillingness to understand the physics of your design. I have seen others, and at one stage tried myself to explain the issues it has (and they are not in the details).
I do hope you will complete your build, as the last picture I saw of it looked like you were on your way. What I hope more, is that once you have built it, that you realise what (apart from friction) might stop it from self sustaining.
I heard Julius Sumner Miller state, "There are no unsuccessful experiments", as will be the case with your build.