Compensation

[eccentrically1]

The automatic movements of the body to maintain balance.
And -

I've always wondered: if the men in power holding all the money thought Bessler was a fraud, why didn't they call his bluff? It wouldn't have cost them anything, anyway. They wouldn't have to pay him, and everyone goes home happy (unless they held Bessler to his promise). If their worst fears were realized- the wheel was genuine, and they had to cough up 100000 thalers, wouldn't it have been worth more than what he was asking? Am I missing a part of the story?

[daxwc]

!00,000 talers was a lot money especially considering it was pre-industrial revolution with no middle class to support it. Can’t be compared to latitude because it was need to keep King’s expensive ships afloat and colonies growing.

[Grimer]

Don't you mean longitude?

[daxwc]

Yep, you just got to get a little better at reading my mind, doesn’t transfer well to paper sometimes.

[Timothy]

"In India, people have caught monkeys by setting out a small box with a tasty nut in it. There is an opening in the box large enough for the monkey to thrust in his hand, but too small for him to withdraw it once he's clutched the nut. When the monkey has grabbed the prize, he must either let go and regain his freedom or keep hold and stay trapped.
Most monkeys hold onto the nut making it easy for hunters to pick them up." (Elizabeth Brenner, Winning by Letting Go)

Bessler held on too tight for too long.

"That which we cannot give away, we do not possess. It possesses us."

[Grimer]

Yep, you just got to get a little better at reading my mind, doesn’t transfer well to paper sometimes.

[John Collins]

I've always wondered: if the men in power holding all the money thought Bessler was a fraud, why didn't they call his bluff? It wouldn't have cost them anything, anyway. They wouldn't have to pay him, and everyone goes home happy (unless they held Bessler to his promise). If their worst fears were realized- the wheel was genuine, and they had to cough up 100000 thalers, wouldn't it have been worth more than what he was asking? Am I missing a part of the story?

Yes eccentrically1, Bessler had to have the money in front of him before he would reveal the secret. Escrow was unacceptable. Nothing less than cash on the table beside him at the test site. No one would comply with that demand, other than Peter the Czar of Russia who unfortunately for us, died on his way there.

JC

[eccentrically1]

Fletcher replied to this topic in a different thread where I originally asked this question - I copied and pasted it here in order to reply to him in this thread:
Fletcher said:

He offered his head & the money back if it wasn't 'True PM' - Wagner & he agreed it was Intrinsic Motion [motion motivated from within] - Wagner defined that as wind up springs etc i.e. a source of internal Pe - Bessler disagreed but agreed that it was Intrinsic so therefore he had a broader belief in what constituted Intrinsic Motion - they couldn't agree on it being called 'True PM'.

That was where the arguments were going to be afterwards - what is 'True PM' ? - was Cornelius Drebble's barmetric clock 'True PM' ? - was Cox's Clock [that came later] also 'True PM' ?

Bessler would have argued his was true PM till the cows came home & others like Wagner & the scientists of his time would have sat in panels & discussed it - ultimately a judgement by his peers would need to be made that Bessler was prepared to accept - he did not propose a peer review, arbitration & binding decision process in the contract - he did not discuss what 'True PM' meant to him - he would have gone with the argument that it was Intrinsic Motion, it didn't use fuel [let's say] but it did do work & nobody could explain where its energy came from, ergo it must be 'True PM' by lack of evidence to the contrary - today we'd be able to explain where that energy came from.

IOW's the lawyers were going to have a field day & Bessler was banking on collecting the money because the negative couldn't be proved by his opposition that would surely come

Eccentrically1 reply:
What more proof could they have needed that it was true PM than the 54 day demonstration, if that was the last hurdle? 154 days? He offered for the test to go longer and I think they said it wasn't needed; if they didn't take him up on his offer for an even longer test, that tells me they were satisfied it was PM.
What does everyone here think: was the 54 day test rigged as a confederacy between Bessler and Karl? Was it genuine? If so, would that test be enough in your minds to demonstrate PM? If no, Why not?

It would have been an interesting court case if that had been the ending.

[jim_mich]

The mistake which Bessler and Karl made was in closing up the room. Thus no one could actually see the wheel as it ran for the 54 days. The wheel should have been publicly visible but untouchable. It should have been on display inside a cage of glass or of iron bars while protected from rain and weather.

Bessler should have installed power-take-off clutches which could be engaged one at a time to drive the hammer mill or drive the water pump or drive an elevator lifting a cannon ball which then rolls back down to be lifted up again and a gain. The wheel should have been on public display and running until it was sold. This would have proven that the wheel was not just intrinsic motion. This would have proven that the wheel was capable of doing limited work for unlimited length of time with no added input of fuel or energy.



PS, if you use the phpBB quote feature it helps readers to understand who is talking. It is very easy to use. If you screw up simply edit your post until is right.

Quote Example:

Code: Select all

[quote="Fletcher"]He offered his head & the money back if it wasn't 'True PM'[/quote]

[daxwc]

Jim:

The mistake which Bessler and Karl made was in closing up the room. Thus no one could actually see the wheel as it ran for the 54 days. The wheel should have been publicly visible but untouchable. It should have been on display inside a cage of glass or of iron bars while protected from rain and weather.

There was a report that you could hear it run the whole time, remember the man who went to see it but only got to hear it run in the castle. The real problem with Bessler is the same one a lot of people have, whether he knew it or not, was his attitude.

[jim_mich]

There was a report that you could hear it run the whole time, remember the man who went to see it but only got to hear it run in the castle.

I am unaware of any such report. Do you have a source?

[Timothy]

Jim,

Thanks for the quote advice. Was wondering how it worked. Tried it......very easy.

technophobe.

[daxwc]

Stewart or JC have it my advanced search doesn’t work.

[John Collins]

daxwc wrote:

There was a report that you could hear it run the whole time, remember the man who went to see it but only got to hear it run in the castle.

Jim_Mitch wrote

I am unaware of any such report. Do you have a source?

I can't find the relevant report at the moment, and I'm going away for a few days, but I would just point out that in her 'testimony' Bessler's maid claimed that Bessler demanded that she and his wife and daughter, operate the wheel all through the night for 54 days as well as during the day, in case someone should come along and notice that it wasn't turning, and since it (probably) wasn't visible from the door it must have been making a noise.

There were also guards placed by the door at all times and they would have noticed if the wheel was silent, given that so many reports describe the noise the wheel made. Plus of course there were no reports that the wheel was silent.

JC

[eccentrically1]

oops try again