Merseburg1, What I see..

[VANDUGEGS]

I have copied the picture of the Merseburg1.
I found it on Bill's site, of which I find very interesting and informative.
I would like to discuss what i see.
Lets start with the box hanging on the rope. The rope seems to be wrapped around an axle, or what looks like an axle.
It looks like it is used to help start the machine. It also seems possible that it is continually used as it may wrap and unwrap as the machine is moving. Or is this just a method of showing the power of the machine?
I always have in mind, that Bessler used his clock making talents when he made his wheels. This would go hand in hand with a machine moving with slow RPM's.
What do you think?

Darrell

[sleepy]

I think the crate was just used to demonstrate work,filling barn lofts was a difficult job before elevators.I can't envision a way that the axel could have wrapped and unwrapped to the benefit of the wheel.However,the fittings at the ends of the axel to which the pendula are attached,(the weird C with a tail and a hole)seem to appear regularly in many Bessler drawings.The opposing degrees of the pendula would carry the wheel through maybe 3/4 of a turn on their own,leaving an internal mechanism to complete the rev and reset the pendula.Perhaps the greater amount of driving force is supplied by the pendula,thus the size of the wheel and long stroke is necessary.Just thinking out loud.

[rlortie]

I have copied the picture of the Merseburg1.
I found it on Bill's site, of which I find very interesting and informative.
I would like to discuss what i see.
Lets start with the box hanging on the rope. The rope seems to be wrapped around an axle, or what looks like an axle.
It looks like it is used to help start the machine. It also seems possible that it is continually used as it may wrap and unwrap as the machine is moving. Or is this just a method of showing the power of the machine?
I always have in mind, that Bessler used his clock making talents when he made his wheels. This would go hand in hand with a machine moving with slow RPM's.
What do you think?

Darrell

Darrell

First you must review these woodcuts as a speculative reference. I say this, as the consensus of the group is that Bessler did not use pendulums on his working wheels.

As per the position of the four hammer mills and direction of travel to operate them implies that the box on a rope is dropping. For all we know it may be winding a spring that will keep the wheel turning with enough stored energy to raise the box. That does not work because when the box reaches the pulley it will stop the wheel. The axle can drop the box and pick it up, but it cannot pick it up and drop it, without changing direction.

As for Bessler clock making talents I believe he did just that. The early 1700Â’s was a time of popular clock making and an era of fast technology advancements in chronology. You might say it started when Galileo announced his pendulum theories and laws. I have other evidence supporting this.

Note that the hammers are not drawn to depict, lobes on axel activating them.
The pendulums on the side view have different pivot configuration than the one on the right. The center pendulum is drawn with its, pivot point out side itÂ’s axis.

We are looking at two different machines here. As evidenced by the floor to ceiling supports, the plinth and finals do not match. Note the bell crank and rod in the right image and you will see that the rod is attached to the backside of crank, This tells me that crank turned less than 180 degrees maximum as it would hit axis. And why the “C” shape crank? IS this crank attached to a smaller shaft that could easily be connected to a mechanical clock escapement to release weights, I think it stands a good chance. The platen (part of an escapement) could have easily been designed to move or hold weights with the amplitude of the pendulum. as the weight moves it hits a pawl on platen giving the pendulum a nudge to maintain said amplitude.

Bottom line here, view these images with an open mind use them for ideas to build from.
It is possible that these pictures are meant to deceive or hide his invention but leave clues, just as he did in his book AP

Ralph

[sleepy]

Is it your thinking then that Bessler may have used his clock making talents to pull off a hoax?That would explain the size of the wheel.That box attached to the axle in conjuction with inner springs and weights could conceivably pull it off.About the pendula,is it possible they were left off the other drawings as not to provide too large a clue?

[rlortie]

Is it your thinking then that Bessler may have used his clock making talents to pull off a hoax?That would explain the size of the wheel.That box attached to the axle in conjuction with inner springs and weights could conceivably pull it off.About the pendula,is it possible they were left off the other drawings as not to provide too large a clue?

Sleepy,

No I do not think he did it to pull off a hoax. After my years of investigative research, I am biased to say he did it. I have never found any writings were any person has stated that Bessler pulled off any hoax. Those who denied it did not bother to look and those who did look could not deny it.

Newton bound to his own announcements of Gravity did not look as he would have lost all respect in the science of physics,had he not seen through any deception.

I believe it is possible, and that it was operated by mechanical designs not unlike a pendulum clock. the weights replace the hanging weights to operate an escapement. Imagine if you will an hour hand on a Grandfather clock doing 20 rpm rather than 1/60 rpm. Same principle.

Gravity is considered a conservitive energy but yet it has gradient, which means potential. A potential that we need to unlock. I believe that bessler learned how to utilize this potential to run his wheel.

Ralph

[ovyyus]

Hi Ralph and Sleepy,

Since you've generously responded to Vandugegs (Darrell Vandusen) question I'm sure you will soon be receiving private followup emails from him tempting you to become involved in his scam.

Please be aware that Darrel Vandusen has cost several members here a considerable amount of time and money (Pete lost the most that we know of) with his "I've got a working wheel" scam.

Vandusen will show you photo's and video that looks convincing and will claim that his wheel actually works. In fact it is all a scam and none of it is true - Darrell Vandusen is a pathological liar.

You can read more about Darrell Vandusen in our Fraud Forum - BE WARNED!

PS:

About the pendula,is it possible they were left off the other drawings as not to provide too large a clue?

Pendulums were not left off the other drawings - they are there if you search for them.

[VANDUGEGS]

If the box was used to show a lifting power, when and how did he fasten it to the axel? And how did he disconnet it? It still looks like a start up procedure.

Darrell

[coylo]

Ovyyus is right.
I'm sorry to say it but Darrell has abused members trust and probably lost all respect on this forum.
I tried to alleviate this but he has unanswered/ignored my questions in previous posts.
He's deluded and avoids this issue.

It's an unfortunate situation and I'd like to be polite, but I won't be addressing his posts in the future unless he admits his wheel is fraudulent and reimburses Pete.

[Jonathan]

Ovyyus' post is good in case Ralph hasn't gotten around to reading all the Vandu stuff, but we don't need to go on about it.
It should be noted that the pictures aren't stand alone, they were published with notes that describe the numbered parts. The box is to show lifting ability, as was seen by eyewitnesses that it rose, not fell. The box was attached to the axle with a rope that attached to a peg on the axle. The box and rope could be attached and then the wheel started. I personally don't think it is likely that the wheel was started and then any load was applied beyond grabbing the wheel, as I think it would be hard to attach and deattach things to it, but I remember vaguely arguing about it before, some think that at least the Archimedean screw could have been put on while the wheel was turning, but that is another woodcut.

[VANDUGEGS]

I agree with Jonathan,

I could see a person, hooking a rope onto an already moving wheel, especially at a slow moving rpm.
However, do they then stop the wheel after the box is raised?

Regarding the pendulums, their is one at each end of the axle.
I do not see how they could be of any use, either to help the wheel or keep it at a predetermend speed.
They continue to remind me of the workings of a clock.

Darrell

[Jonathan]

I also wondered how good they would be at regulating the wheel, so I made a small model. They do work, but not well in my model. However, because of the large inertia of the wheel itself(which overcomes the jerkiness that I saw), I think they would be a reasonable and simple way to do it.
The wheel must be stopped when the box reaches the top, or else it will hit the pulley it hangs from, and this will stop the wheel and probably break the pulley supports. The wheel would be stopped and the screwed-in peg that the rope attaches to would be removed while the rope is held. The rope would be unwound and lowered by hand, then reattached with the peg and the wheel restarted.

[jim_mich]

Jonathan,

The wheel must be stopped when the box reaches the top, or else it will hit the pulley it hangs from, and this will stop the wheel and probably break the pulley supports. The wheel would be stopped and the screwed-in peg that the rope attaches to would be removed while the rope is held. The rope would be unwound and lowered by hand, then reattached with the peg and the wheel restarted.

There is a much easier way! Wrap the rope around a shaft or a v-groove pulley. With a weight on the one end you pull lightly on the other end. The rope becomes tight around the pulley and the pulley does all the work.

I drove two shallow wells using this method to repeatedly lift and drop a 60 pound weight. I made a tri-pod with a pulley above the well. I attached an old 12 inch cast iron pulley to the end of the tines shaft of an old roto-tiller, then fixed the tiller so it wouldn't move. It took about 8 hours to drive a well point 30 feet deep.



PS. I got the idea from The Mother Earth News many many moons ago.

[ovyyus]

The wheel would be stopped and the screwed-in peg that the rope attaches to would be removed while the rope is held. The rope would be unwound and lowered by hand, then reattached with the peg and the wheel restarted.

Jonathan, I think your speculation is incorrect. The reports indicate that the rope was not removed after the load was raised. In addition, the wheel was apparently started with the load already attached:

... Within about one revolution, the machine had aquired a strong and even rotation, even when a box was lifted, which had been filled with six whole bricks weighing together about seventy pounds. The weight was lifted by means of a rope conducted through a window by means of a pulley, eight ells (14.8 feet) upwards to the roof, and several Clafter (1 Clafter is about 8.2 feet) down into the yard.... - Certificate for wheel tested at Merseburg, signed 31st October, 1715.

and:

... the most extaordinary thing I noticed was that the machine showed the same strength and speed during the lifting and lowering of the load... - Johann Weisse, Distict Magistrate, report on Merseburg wheel examination, 31st October, 1715.

From http://www.orffyre.com/quotes.html


PS: While I don't want to go on about it, posting under this thread is leaving me feeling like I need to take a shower. I will no longer post replies under any of Darrell Vandusen's discussion topics with the exception of posting the occasional fraud warning.

[rlortie]

I agree with Jonathan,

Regarding the pendulums, their is one at each end of the axle.
I do not see how they could be of any use, either to help the wheel or keep it at a predetermend speed.
They continue to remind me of the workings of a clock.
Darrell

Darrell,

They are supposed to remind you of a clock. Think amplitude for moving weights, and yes they will determine speed.

Ralph

[epistemologicide]

yeah we do need to go on about it jonathen. cause thats all he is doing is scouting and like bill said ready to follow up with pms. and waste more time.

this scamer cost me money with a non discloser that was wasted. 90$
i needed that money to help save the environment. i am awared a certain budget.

and let me say darrel, me being young and a body builder, dont take kindly to scum that keep the people that have a right to be here as in protecting mother earth from doing our work.

i think i am saying what a majority on the board here feel. and that is your lucky to get away with what you did darrel. DONT PUSH YOUR LUCK.