An horizontal gravity wheel

[ruggerodk]

The Cyr Wheel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i83sRWz1 ... re=related

[path_finder]

on the same subject:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhGcvuFj_bI

[path_finder]

The last video above is interesting, because it is a validation crossroad of several old expressed points of view:

1. The Alden E. Park's suggestion about the use by Bessler of an 'unlubricated bearing'
IMHO the idea is pertinent, but it was not exactly a bearing in the common sense (reductor of friction) but almost in addition a power reservoir.
By focalizing the debate around the friction, Mr Park missed the dynamical advantage of such as feature.
Ref: http://www1.iwvisp.com/LA4Park/BesslerWheelPaperDOC.doc

2. The Mr Lawrence TSEUNG ('tseung88') concept of the impulse such as basic required source of motion duration
The idea is pertinent, a succession of small shocks being able to increase the accumulated energy by the system.
Ref: www.free-energy-info.com/EnergyMachines.pdf

3. The attempts of Mr Felix WÃœRTZ with his trilobed excentered mechanism
If you look at his videos since some years ago, you will observe how he made the manipulation of the central pulley (by some successive pulls).
On the latest videos he has replaced this handy action by a pneumatic piston actuated with the right timing.
I don't know why until today he did NOT found the appropriated mechanism actuated by a part of the generated energy.
Ref: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1aZnUC-QJU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGXv8AeUsQk

4. The rubber band concept
We find here again the famous toy of our friend Grimer.
Ref: http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 9442#89442

5. The 'flowerbowl' (trilobed bowl of the Prince Sabu) should be a mechanical part involved in such as centrifugal/gravitational system.
I'm now pretty sure now the main axis was in fact in the vertical position, like a standard top, the whole system being included inside a drum.
This should be not very different from the David HAMEL device, replicated by Jean-Louis NAUDIN
Ref: http://jnaudin.free.fr/images/h45banm.gif
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/hfrnrgen.htm


Now you will ask: this is nice, but all these wheels are horizontal
How to shift to the vertical version?

The principle is explained in the drawing below (where the dimensions of the elongated arms have been oversized for a better view).
As you can see the wheel has two symmetrical drums, not attached but coaxial (the interspace rollers have not been represented).
Each half wheel (green and yellow) is soldered (in red) to a set of spring bars (in rosa), assuming a first step of elastic torque (Only two bars are represented).

But much more interesting is the shaft (in blue) located inside these string bars, wich transfers back the end plate of the arm (in orange) inside the wheel, where a gear can be linked to the internal mechanism.
By this way we can not only manage the rotation of the disks, but also the elastic motion of the axles like in the video above.
The internal mechanics must link the both in accordance with the above depicted concept.
Please note also there is no bearings at all (with the exception in the two pillars for supporting the both ends of the blue shafts)

[murilo]

3. The attempts of Mr Felix WÃœRTZ with his trilobed excentered mechanism
If you look at his videos since some years ago, you will observe how he made the manipulation of the central pulley (by some successive pulls).
On the latest videos he has replaced this handy action by a pneumatic piston actuated with the right timing.
I don't know why until today he did NOT found the appropriated mechanism actuated by a part of the generated energy.
Ref: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1aZnUC-QJU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGXv8AeUsQk

PF, this is a top design set, but there is an explanation for the 'hard to find' application: this device offers too low power - equivalent to 'applied little force' and the inertia.

In that site the guy says that up to that moment he didn't see a cycle run, besides some examples in photo.

Maybe it's a curious and complicated light flywheel, because the people involved look to have enough means for a great goal.

This may be possibly a good mechanic harvesting power for some oscillatory device. 8)
Best!
M

[path_finder]

Dear Murillo,
Many thanks for your attention.
Are you the single person here interested with this very important subject and not almost by the futile complains?.

this device offers too low power

I disagree because if the repetitive impulse can be small, instead the centrifugal force is a major source of power (1/2.M.omega²) specially with a high rotation speed.

The TAS-Kolbensteurung explanation:
http://www.naturtechnik.de/alt/wuerth/t ... nktion.htm

Regarding the attempt of Mr Würth and associates, I can only repeat my opinion: the global COG must be calculated including the mass of the whole frame.
Therefore the circular path of this resultant COG will still be within few millimeters if you build the frame with a military tank design.
IMHO the Bessler excellence came from a light although strong building.
NB: In a previous post I mentioned the possible use of glass for the soldering points on the spring bars.

[murilo]

PF,
this is a good subject, although I guess that it has noting to see with JB stuffs... I guess!

You're right, I don't have futile complains... I have true based complains! 8)

Be sure, this device can easily and instantly be braked, even if the eccentric masses are fit at different quadrants.

Almost everyone in this forum knows that we are facing a really hard task, but most feel as they were in a casino and a great luck will hit them if they try enough.

You are one who knows that hard work - very complicated hard work - is a must, together to all rare but obvious stuffs. You look to love your brain frying... don't you? Day will come when your dandruff will explode and jump just like those crispy dry snacks... ploft... ploft... 8)))

Best!
M.

[Grimer]

After six years of studies, my personal opinion on the Bessler wheel
Note: everything below is MY opinion, and perhaps (certainly?) NOT the truth. To be taken as.

1. The wheel should be horizontal but has been demonstrated in a vertical position in view to squeeze the witnesses.
From this point of view are coming several consequences:

2. The wheel is perfectly balanced, even in rotation
This is needed by the vertical position.
Il the full balance is assumed the gravity has no effect at all anymore
By choosing the vertical position Bessler has voluntary driven the people in a wrong way, the inventers being inclined to believe in the gravitational solution.

3. The rotation of the wheel is obtained by the centrifugal force and the redirection of the rotational momentum
For a weight fixed on the wheel (on the rim per example) usually the centrifugal force is centered (passing through the main axis of the wheel).
Instead now let suppose each previous weight is itself a rotating assembly of several weights of different values.
For each weight of this assembly there is a centrifugal force, not directed to the main axis of the wheel, but now directed to the rotation axle of its group.
A clever geometry can combine all these elementary CF (including the CF of each sub-assembly) into an excentered force.

4. At the rest position the main axis of the wheel is centered by some springs.
Therefore if in addition, the wheel is balanced, the whole wheel will be standing.

5. After put in rotation by a sufficient push, the resultant of all centrifugal forces will drive the wheel
This resultant force can be redirected only if the rotation speed reachs a minimum value.

6. the main axis end first path is a spiral, then a circle
During the acceleration phase the main axis of the wheel leaves the orthogonal axis of the starting plane (like any top in rotation), until the precession torque will be equalized by the set of springs assuming until now the rest position (the springs are in violet in the drawing below).

7. An internal mechanism transforms the main rotation into several rotational motions
The tricky thing is precisely the used geometry for all these rotating sub-assemblies, which must keep their balanced position (against the main axis), but also must modify the direction of the centrifugal forces. I have some ideas about.

Additional comments:
- the drawing below shows the concept for a such as wheel in the horizontal position (the angle of the precession has been oversized).
- for sure in that horizontal position the set of springs is simple.
In the vertical position they must be ten times strongers.
This can explain the presence of the spring bars (see the elongated arms) for this purpose, the physical axle being returned back from the end (inside these arms) in the interior of the wheel for the feedback control of the rotational sub-assemblies.
- There is no other reason for explain the last task of Bessler: unsuccessful in his attempts to let recognize his pseudo 'gravity wheel' in the crazy vertical position, the only solution for him was to reveal an important point and enlarge the potential use of his wheel in a standard horizontal position (his last attempt).
- this concept is not new, as signaled earlier:
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 7117#67117
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 9381#79381
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 0140#80140
and the small video here: http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 9720#79720
Just for the memory remember the attempt of Mr Würtz: http://www.naturtechnik.de/pages/en/home.php
And also the attempt of Mr Gurbakhsh Singh Mann : http://gurbakhshsinghmannglobalenergy.com/biz/index.htm
(seems to be down now by his childreen after he died).
- the level of usable power is much more important than any wheel based on an overbalanced geometry and the PE/KE (potential and kinetic energy)

edited:
the documentation on Mr Gurbakhsh Singh Mann updated by Preston Stroud (many thanks to him):
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory: ... n_of_India

That is certainly a fascinating thesis, pathfinder.

[rocky]

Here is a 1902 Horizontal Gravity Wheel where the axle is vertical. Notice that it runs at 30 rpm, faster than Bessler's Kassel machine.

The St. Louis Republic (St. Louis, Mo.) Newspaper Oct. 17, 1902, pg. 9

"PERPETUAL MOTION SECURED THROUGH FORCE OF GRAVITY?"

"J. D. Grimes has invented a machine which, although simply an experiment, apparently, has proven that perpetual motion may be secured. The machine is so simple that a child can understand the principle of its construction, but Grimes has been at work on it for the last twelve years, perfecting it only a month ago since which time it has run continuously except when he stopped it to show the machine to interested persons. The idea which has sent many men to the madhouse has, with Mr. Grimes, he is sure, becomes an accomplished fact.

Gravitation, the power which almost all of the experimenters for perpetual motion have sought to harness, is used by Mr. Grimes, and he also saddles an ingenious contrivance of shifting weight to bring his machine over the dead level which has formed an insurmountable obstacle with inventors of perpetual motion. The working model is on exhibition at Phillip Hulliung’s shop at No. 302 Collinsville Avenue, East St. Louis, where Mr. Grimes is employed. It has attracted much attention, and Mr. Grimes is kept busy in his spare moments explaining it to the curious.

The machine consists of a circular base of wood on the outer edge of which Mr. Grimes has built a camel’s back wheel race with one depression and one long and a short decline to the top of the hump. The motor part of the machine resembles a turntable. To one side is attached a movable lever on which is attached a small wheel. A spring which is attached to the other side of the center of the turntable suspends the lever and prevents the wheel from touching the lower part of the depression in the wheel race. Opposite the lever and the wheel on the outer edge of the turntable is arranged a weight exactly balancing the apparatus on the other side. The entire machine is then tilted slightly and it starts off on its own accord and does not stop until outside influences intervene.

As explained by Mr. Grimes, the spring which holds the lever and the little wheel takes up just enough of the weight on that side of the turntable to allow the weight on the other side to cross the center, or dead level, after which the spring again comes into use and the weight is taken up in equal proportions by the entire turntable. The start which the wheel has received permits the little wheel to follow around the wheel race, and the entire operation is repeated. The machine makes thirty revolutions a minute, but Mr. Grimes believes that it is possible for it to make a hundred, or even more with nicely adjusted bearings. The principal feature in the machine is the absence of complicated machinery, there being only one wheel and a turntable. Mr. Grimes has applied for a patent of his machine."

Does anyone have a better photograph of it?

[ruggerodk]

That is a brilliant find, Rocky ;-D

Mr. Grimes has applied for a patent, so perhaps the US Patent Office must have this filed, with drawings...?

I have difficulties understanding the actual construction of the spring and lever suspension. From the picture it seems like it's a long curved arm, fixed to the center of the roundtable (and turning around with it) and also this arm holding the pivot point of the leverarm. This leverarm having a small whell at one end and seemingly 2 'rods' or springs connected to the downside of the roundtable: One attached to the opposite end of the lever (short arm) and another attached to the lever pivotpoint. It also seems like there is some adjustment mech at the end of the short leverarm.

Is the long curved arm supposed to lever vertically following the path of the roundtable or is it fixed in its horizontal plane?

Running CW or CCW? (The angle of decline is different on each side)

The small wheel is not supposed to touch the deep end of the race track?

The center stand has a volume that could contain a battery......???

Just my 2 cent
Regards
ruggero ;-)

[path_finder]

Dear rocky,
Many thanks for the data. I heart about that but had no record.
This device seems to be similar with the Gurbaskhk engine.

As explained earlier here: http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 0136#80136
I can testify by my practical experiments the concept is excellent: this is typically a double pendulum device.
The first one produces the rotation (and the power)
The second controls the first one, giving to him a parametric behavior.

This certainly today the concept which gave to me the best results:
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 9720#79720
Unfortunately my building was not strong enough and I cannot obtain the loop without to correct manually the torsion defects of the frame.

[AB Hammer]

Rocky

I could not find the patents and the address looked fairly deserted. But it may be worth a side trip if I ever go see some friends of mine in MO. You never know what you can find in closed buildings. It may still be there as unwanted junk. But I would doubt it due to scrapers, but you never know until you try.

[nicbordeaux]

Rocky, the horizontal wheel youve found a pic of runs on the principle of using the normally "to ground" force given by the weight of the actual machine itself. It's on a spring axle, at rest it weighs "x" and compresses the spring, a principle expounded on elsewhere on the forum. If it is a slight incline, just a few degrees with a little OB (and a bump in the guide track to lift vertically and get the free energy out of that spring), it's going to keep repeating revs just as long as the energy gain is greater than the loss on hitting the bump. The lift on the hump or bump part is made very easy by the spring uncompressing. The acceleration from G comes with the wheel being ever so slightly off horizontal. A very simple device to make from an old turntable.

[murilo]

I have another and different vision of this device, that is a good find!

There is an equilibrating pivoting horizontal table (a flywheel) and an eccentric curved arm coming to a small bicycle wheel in below.

The wheel is over a single sinuous 360º track, that from the top where it is, has an abrupt fall to right and a slight or smooth rise coming from left.

This super simple design is really clever and has to see with those F_E trains that we discussed here, that propose sinuous ramps/rails and repetitive rise and fall, so as to those inclined comparative devices with angled ramps.

It may work fine if friction losses in that wheel are not high.

For sure, not to speak about power harvesting! 8)

Best!
M

[jim_mich]

But it may be worth a side trip if I ever go see some friends of mine in MO. You never know what you can find in closed buildings. It may still be there as unwanted junk.

According to Google maps, (assuming even number addresses on the north) the Phillip Hulliung’s shop at 302 Collinsville Avenue, East St. Louis, has been torn down. The building on the south side of the street is also now gone according to a later Google satellite view.

[murilo]

I have another and different vision of this device, that is a good find!

There is an equilibrating pivoting horizontal table (a flywheel) and an eccentric curved arm coming to a small bicycle wheel in below.

The wheel is over a single sinuous 360º track, that from the top where it is, has an abrupt fall to right and a slight or smooth rise coming from left.

This super simple design is really clever and has to see with those F_E trains that we discussed here, that propose sinuous ramps/rails and repetitive rise and fall, so as to those inclined comparative devices with angled ramps.

It may work fine if friction losses in that wheel are not high.

For sure, not to speak about power harvesting! 8)

Best!
M

PS: for absolutely, that wheel's curved arm is connected to the main axle on an articulated way, since it may oscillate up and down.