Bessler's Second possible secret of Genuis

[Michael]

Hi Scott,

Okay, a notable difference from the link you posted and the pendulum setup I am talking about is the yours is chaotic. The one I made can be chaotic, but it can also be synchonis, and it's in that form that it is used.

Michael

[Michael]

Jonathan,

>I said I didn't mean to be mean, sorry to upset you. I too am for discussion, but unlike you I think I actually am discussing. Look at my post count, when I have something to say, it is said!

This really doesn't make a lot of sense especially when compared to this

>Of course, those things said are rarely ideas of my own, so in this respect you are saying more than me.

This is discussing Jonathan,
>Hi Michael, That sounds interesting, can you give us a diagram of the double pendulum mechanism your refering to?



I'm pretty sure Michael is talking about something like this: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~plynch/Swingin ... dulum.html



But I don't want this to digress into petty opinions. Look, I agree you are right when you say

>I bet you have given out a lot, but from your view you can't see as easily as us how many ways it can be taken.

and your right, so to quote, help me help you. I want to share a lot of this, but I am going to remain silent on some specifics for a given period of time, but by what I've said and what has been written, a lot can be infered. Challenge me if you don't understand, ask some point blank questions.

Michael

[Michael]

Fletcher,

The only thing I disagree with at the moment is this.

>"Others like you, me, nearly everyone else, work on an idea first then post to the board when our progress slows to a halt or is stalled. I think we are fairly representive of everybody out there. We only release designs, clues etc when we have no further personal interest in retaining them for ourselves. That's human nature.



Michael

[Michael]

Hi gravmaster,

I'm going to have to read this a few times to get it.

>I played with the sim for awhile-marveled how chaotic it is. It got my brain flowing....picture this:A wheel with 4 double pendulums on it. the outer weights rod is spring-loaded to the inner rod, with enough spring power to lift the outer weight up if at the top (or nearly enough) When the outer rod crosses the inner, the spring is nulled out (think of a cam)
OK, let it fall CW from the top; it acts pretty rigid, due to the spring. When it gets to straight down, STOP the inner arm, just for a moment. The outer arm will swing in (violently!!), loading the spring. When it gets as far 'in' as it can, lock it down (Stopping the arm is a bad idea, I know-i am assuming all the energy is conserved in a spring or something) now since the arm is shorter, the remaining weight energy can get them back up? At the top, the lock is released and the outer weight swings CW up, throwing the arm down again. EH??? That has GOT to be close....
BTW...My idea has nothing to do with pendulums, and more with overlapping falls-found a second simple,stupid way to make a weight fall without lifting it up in the normal sense.



Can you explain it a little better or draw it?

Michael

[Ed]

I apologize if I offended you Michael, but I have read most of the posts on this board, some multiple times in searching through the board and this is the impression I have come to in reading these posts. Your recent threads just added to that impression. It seemed I was not the only one.

No I haven't done this alot in the past, except with one paticular idea, the water one, so I find this comment equally offensive.

I was certainly not insinuating that you are misleading. Just that you like to dribble out hints and worry when other people say things that get close to your thinking.

I was going to post links to other threads as examples, but I will just stick with my apology and chalk it up to misunderstanding.

[Jonathan]

Okay, rather than asking many little point blank questions, I'll save time by asking you to say all that you can. Also, what is it that has attrached you to MT16? I don't think the 10o'clock weight means anything, if you look really close at MT45, most of the balls on the small wheel are just floating. The second to highest ball on the large wheel is also floating a little. And as you know, in one of the Merseburg woodcuts, the numbers for the wheel lock are revesed, but the numbers aren't mirror images (like this: 21 and 12).

[rlortie]

Hi Ralph,

I've also noted the "flaw" in M.T. 16. perhaps it is purposeful.
The design I am talking about does not look like M.T. 16 in all capacities, except for the pendula placements. This also fits the quote, there was an inner cylinder that resembles a grindstone.

Michael

Michael,

Think I got it, the grindstone is actually Loadstone and the weights are ferrous metal Changing polarity from one side to the other.

Now lets see how this statement is received.

Ralph

[graham]

Hi Michael, my comments about Johnathans remark about about "not saying enough to say anything" were not directed at you personally but more to the whole Bessler saga.

Bessler wrote thousands of words about his wheels and gave many clues but after 300 years no one has gotten anything out of his clues.
For example he said that his weights came in pairs. Now this could mean that you could build a working machine with just two weights , or on the other hand four weights were needed for a working model, ie a pair of two weight systems.

You ask where I got the comment about Bessler hiding behind words. It comes from Apologia page 283

So my visitors,who come to learn my secrets, take note that I can hide behind words. I'm well versed in the art of rhetoric - so keep away.

Good luck with your ideas

Graham

[Jonathan]

I don't think loadstone is sufficiently strong to cause any notable forces on anything that far away.

[Michael]

>Okay, rather than asking many little point blank questions, I'll save time by asking you to say all that you can. Also, what is it that has attrached you to MT16? I don't think the 10o'clock weight means anything, if you look really close at MT45, most of the balls on the small wheel are just floating. The second to highest ball on the large wheel is also floating a little. And as you know, in one of the Merseburg woodcuts, the numbers for the wheel lock are revesed, but the numbers aren't mirror images (like this: 21 and 12).\\

I've already made a post that commented on why M.T. 16, it's in the other thread. I noticed what he was saying about it, and then reflected on what it was and if it could be applied to what I already knew. It did.
Tell you what, I'll comment on what has been stated as being a part of Bessler's wheel and how those contents are in this structure. Then you can ask questions.

Ralph, I gavce some thought also that that might signify a loadstone, but I don't think it is.
Do you know how Bessler got his other name?

Michael

[Michael]

Questions and Answers.

Q: Does the machine always want to move, even when it is held still?

A: Yes

Q: Do the weights act in pairs?

A: Yes. Specifically by the principle stated by Bessler, 1/4 moves 1/4, moves 1 full. (Paraphrased), but as he said it to be.

Q: Does the machine use jacks?

A: As was pointed out by Jim Mitch, jacks in and of themselves are nothing special. They are only a combination of levers. The double pendulum being refered to is also a combination of connected levers, with weights placed at certain areas.

Q: Can the machine be over speed by hand?

A: It is important that the machine keep a near consistant speed level.

Q: Do all of the clues fit?

A: I haven't found one so far that hasn't.

I'll post more when I think of them, maybe you all can help out.

[rlortie]

Michael,

You ask if I new how Bessler got his other name, yes I do. and I also know the secret it could possible represent. I think you already know and are throwing a big hint here.

Soon it will open like a peacocks tail for all receptive to see. Beware of patting th dogs paw, as the cat will chase the mouse.

Ralph

[Michael]

Hi Ralph,

I do know how he got it, actually it is common knowledge, and yes it is a hint but a hint towards what we were already talking about. I don't think our interpretations are the same but I could be wrong. I'm not sure what you mean by these;

> Beware of patting th dogs paw, as the cat will chase the mouse.

Ralph




Michael

[rlortie]

Hi Ralph,

I do know how he got it, actually it is common knowledge, and yes it is a hint but a hint towards what we were already talking about. I don't think our interpretations are the same but I could be wrong. I'm not sure what you mean by these;

> Beware of patting th dogs paw, as the cat will chase the mouse.

Ralph Michael

Michael,

I may be sending you to a number of links that you are aware of, but for those who wish to learn more of Bessler and interpitations by others, here is a good place to start.

http://www.cybrtown.com/~mike/bessler/bbottom.html

I have pulled this for edit three times now I hope it will work this time.

Enjoy all,

Ralph

[Michael]

Hi Ralph, seen it. Seen most of the stuff on the net for Bessler. Thanks though. Feel free to post on this thread as others might benifit.

Mike