A theory about why the number five is so prominent in Johann Bessler's works.

[daxwc]

JC is not the one your calling DT not actually a pentagon? I believe there is no lines present to make the pentagram.

[daxwc]

5. The Greek Pentagram, two points up

“The Logos (proportion) is the Divine in relationship to the create world…is at once the Cutter of the universe and the glue binding it together� [Heres 133, 146]
That the modern New-Age movement, the Templars, Satanists, Freemasons, and esoteric crystal-rubbing white-lighters have misappropriated the pentagram for their own ends, herein will be utterly ignored that we might get to the original meaning and ontological precedent by which Pythagoras and his sect saw the pentagram as the symbol of, Totality (4.23606). Foremost, it must be understood that the original Pythagorean pentagram was always two points up, always, the one point up pentagram most often seen today was not that of the Pythagoreans for several reasons. #1. that “triple intersecting triangle� [Lucian, “In Defense of a Slip of the Tongue in Greeting,� (5Lucian-Kilburn, 177); (Vogel, 1966, 46; Thomas, 1934, I, 225)] had 2 points up to represent the 1-1-Phi triangle as base-down for a reason, this represents the lower and empirical Phi, of Being. #2. That Air and Ether (Being, Phi) were to be represented at the top. #3. That the Monad apex must be at the top with the two-points-up representation. #4. The sole impetus for the periphery of becoming was the one-point-down, being fire.
The true Pythagorean pentacle was (and is) always two points up and was considered a Pentagrammon – ontological Being in the center, a pentagon (pentagonas) representing the Self, and the five points or blazing angles (pentalpha) represented the Pentemychos - inside the angles, and outside of them - every single line has meaning in this Master Glyph and none of it, not one bit of it, was latter day religious New Age garbage, Freemasonry, and general pagan rubbish.

Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa von Nettesheim had a drawing of a two points up pentacle where he informed the reader it is "Pythagorean," in his [Occult Philosophy, first published in 1533 AD]. He had other drawings, too, of pentacles one point up with a man inside, with astrological symbols. But for the two point up pentacle, he specifically informs us that he knew it was Pythagorean.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/4444883/Cooma ... lden-Ratio

[John Collins]

JC is not the one your calling DT not actually a pentagon? I believe there is no lines present to make the pentagram.

The GB (Grundlicher Bericht) and the DT (Das Tri...) (page 144 in my copy) drawings are similar, daxwc, and both contain pentagrams based on the hidden part of the rope passing upwards from left to right.

JC

[daxwc]

JC the hidden rope forms a inverted pentagram in the Bi-directional Wheel at Merseburg, Germany drawings. Can you please produce or point me to the pentagram that has one point up.

[John Collins]

I just drew this one quickly. Ovvyus did a better one but I haven't asked him for permission to post it.

JC

[daxwc]

I don't know why you say that JC. The pentagram only fits inverted; the is no lines to fit it one point up.

[John Collins]

OK daxwc - I guess you know best.

JC

[jim_mich]

Most artists start a drawing using construction lines, which have certain geometric shapes and patterns.

What you are seeing is simply the normal construction lines in Bessler's drawing, nothing more, nothing less.

[john]

Michael, I have always found that Bessler put the pentagrams upside-down, is this the normal tracing of Venus through the sky?

John, good luck with your build, they always take longer time than you thought it would take to build.

Thx Dax. Did have a thought today. I started making a simple wheel for demonstration purposes. I think everyone will find it interesting. Hope to post a video and a couple of pics next weekend.

John

[daxwc]

I agree to a point Jim; but artists do not use construction lines to make:

1)Golden gnomon
2) Golden triangle
3) Golden rectangle
4) Golden section
5) Golden angle
6) Pi
7) Phi
8) 3-4-5 Pythagorean triangle
9) Kepler triangle
10) Vesica piscis
11) Squaring of the circle
12) Square roots
13) Pentagon
14) Pentagram
15) Hexagon
16) Square

All geometric shapes repeatedly showing up in four drawings without it not being more. You cannot just make a PHI grid and have everything turn up. Go ahead and try it; it make a Phi grid and draw something, you still have to use the proper ratio. That being:

The golden section is a line segment divided according to the golden ratio: The total length a + b is to the length of the longer segment a as the length of a is to the length of the shorter segment b.

Or

1 + square root of 5 divided by 2


There is many places where Bessler put golden rectangles inside golden rectangle as a small sample is in this old thread. This has nothing to do with perspective lines or grids; this is geometric shapes purposely put there. I see no other way.


http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... n&start=30

[rlortie]

I agree with Jim_Mich, certain geometric shapes and patterns reflect orthogonal lay out for perspective and vanishing view points.

The pentagrams and pantographs visualized in Bessler's drawings can be explained by a lengthy read here; http://www.hyperflight.com/pentagon-construct.htm where you will find the 'golden mean' depicted in stars, pyramids and Greek architecture.

IMO the only connection would be to revise MT #137 from twelve points to ten, you could then have five pair of five or dual pentagrams.

[John Collins]

daxwc, while I agree the lines don't seem to be apparent for the point-up pentagram, I would point out the yellow lines in the adapted drawing and the green rings which mark the beginning of each yellow alignment, all on the bottom line. Also the long red line sloping downwards from the left which runs through the left upper point of the up-pointing pentagram and the centre of the wheel.

The yellow lines do not align with the black down-pointing pentagram, only the upwards one.

Finally the chest of stones being lifted aligns again only with the red chord running through the padlock.

JC

[daxwc]

Ralph:

The pentagrams and pantographs visualized in Bessler's drawings can be explained by a lengthy read here; http://www.hyperflight.com/pentagon-construct.htm where you will find the 'golden mean' depicted in stars, pyramids and Greek architecture.

I read it; I must have missed where they talk about how those shapes just come from vanishing lines

.
“golden mean' depicted in stars� The golden ration is everywhere in natures design too, why would we not see it in stars?


“Pyramids� Why don’t you believe the ancient Egyptians knew about Phi and put it into the design of the pyramid? You wish to deny Egyptians their sacred geometry, just because we in our modern time don’t find it intellectually appealing anymore?


“Greek architecture.� I very much hope so, there is much undeniable information that the Greeks knew about Phi and used the ratio in buildings, art, ect.

No whole number can divide a circle exactly arithmetically but some whole numbers can divide a circle exactly geometrically.

Go ahead; draw me a phi grid with a vanishing point, then put a drawing of something in it. You will see, you still have measure the degree and count the lengths to get anything like pentagram or golden rectangle to work out, which still means they were purposly put in there. You cant just draw on any grid line or vanishing point line, seriously try it.

[nicbordeaux]

Nic despite your best efforts I see no energy gains in your experiments; an accumulation of chaos does not harvest energy, just look how fast your pendulum slows down. Show us two equal weights and the second ends up at a higher PE, than the first also provided with a better experiment data and maybe somebody might listen to your twitchy non-energy finger. My own personal opinion, what I think is wrong with your experiments is the mass and pendulum arm is not taken into account for properly. I don’t think you can just weigh it without applying some of its mass to the axle, but I could be wrong.

I agree with you too dax, but you can hardly expect me to show a vid of a full blown test with raised com by whatever means and in whatever form without first having my ass seriously covered, first and foresmost from a test protocol point of view.

The mass to axle point is valid if you mean this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud22NkZJG2Q
Balance point of the wrench is one cm off ratchet towards handle, so it's fulcrum heavy, making a bit wheel like for the most part of it's weight, but that doesn't expalin away 400 + grams.


Although as all the components are suspended from something, I'm not quite sure whether you say "all things being equal the point is not relevant, no measurement is required" , or if you have to measure every iota of the system. I'd love to settle for end result vs start measurement, if everything is arranged so that the whole device is reset at end of cycle to start point except for elevation of a mass.

As to runtime, not a valid point. The aim is to extract maximum effect asap before that darn thief entropy turns up. The gizmo with billiard balls and junk is just a "principle".

[daxwc]

Ok, going back to golden rectangles, nobody can deny that Bessler drew the Bi-directional Wheel at Merseburg, Germany drawings inside of one. The paper continues on all sides of the drawing outsides of it. No matter how much you wish it to go away you have to concede the fact, and that it has nothing to do with perspective and vanishing points. That he starts with the whole drawing inside one is most telling that he has knowledge of sacred geometry; but also because he aligns posts and pillars with the total length a + b is to the length of the longer segment a as the length of A is to the length of the shorter segment B. This has absolutely nothing to do with grids or perspective or vanishing points, because this is where he started!