Speculations on the witness's evidence

[John Collins]

There is a tendency, in my opinion, to rely too much on witness statements. I refer, for instance, to the comment by Fischer von Erlach, that suggested he heard "the sound of about eight weights landing gently on the side towards which the wheel turned". This statement is worthy of further investigation.

He says that Karl was present during the whole of the two hours of his examination of the wheel. We know he checked the wheel's speed unloaded several times. He also checked it when it was connected to an archimedes pump. He checked Bessler's claim that it could be started in either direction by a gentle push with just two fingers. Finally we know he listened to the sounds coming from the wheel.

He was quite clear about the speed of the wheel both loaded and unloaded, just as he was in agreement that the wheel could be started in either direction with ease. The only question of doubt lies in his comment that he could hear the sounds of about eight weights landing gently on the side towards which the wheel turned. His use of the word "about" is deliberate and conveys a feeling of uncertainty.

It would not take two hours to check and recheck all the data concerning the wheel's speed and loads, and I suggest that in between talking to Karl and the inventor, Fischer was preoccupied with the sounds coming from the wheel, and this was because he could not ascertain exactly how many sounds he could hear and definitively state where they were coming from. It seems to me that much could have been learned about the wheel if the sounds coming from it had not been deliberately altered to confuse. Bearing in mind Bessler's statement that in previous wheels he had attempted to deaden the sounds of the weights with felt, because he was afraid that someone might discern how it worked, he may have sought to confuse by deadening the sound of some weights in the Kassel wheel, with felt.

Also we don't know if the internal mechanisms were mirror images for each direction - or not. Did he deaden only the reverse travelling weights or did the one or more of the forwarding ones also need deadening? Were they all deadened or only one or two? Fischer probably figured out the same thought as I did that there were mirror image mechanisms within the wheel and therefore tried to differentiate between those that were reversing and those which were driving the wheel forwards. He might separate the fainter sounds as those which were reversing, thus falling into the trap that deadened sounds might have been from forwarding weights. This does not preclude the possibility that Bessler introduced an extra falling weight as well, which had no other purpose but to confuse.

Next we have Wolff's estimate of the Merseberg weights as being about four pounds, did that apply to the weights used in the Kassel wheel? Was that single four pound weight the only one on the end of a lever or whatever it was attached to, or where there more on each one? Do we even know if that four pound weight actually came from the wheel or was it just one he used to hand out for people to see? Maybe there were much heavier weights used.

We assume that the Kassel wheel was the most powerful because it had the biggest depth, being eighteen inches, whereas the Merseberg was only one foot thick, but the latter turned at almost twice the speed of the former, and in either direction. We have Bessler's words telling us that he could reconfigure his wheels to turn either very slowly or much faster, but we don't know whether this was achieved with different weights or more or fewer mechanisms or a change in the range of movement inside the wheel. We don't know what it is that altered the wheel's speed nor its power. Perhaps Bessler deliberately made a slower moving wheel for some purpose in his mind, but we cannot know.

If Bessler was able to make a wheel such as the Merseberg wheel, with a speed of 50 RPM, isn't it conceivable that he could have made the Kassel wheel capable of 50 RPM or more? The reason for the slower RPM could be because he had in mind the long duration test and a slower speed might have been thought less risky due to decreased wear and tear.

The greater depth of the Kassel wheel may have been due to extra weights on the ends of levers to compensate for the slower speed. They would need to be added horizontally in order to maintain the same mechanical advantage so that might explain the increase in depth. The only reason for adding weight would be to increase power, maybe because he wished to slow down the Kassel wheel - so slowing the speed down seems to me to confirm planning for the long duration test.

The reason I'm saying this is that we all make assumptions on the size and number of weights, to try to estimate the potential output of the wheel when really it is pure guess work, because it is based on other guess work relating to the size and number of weights and number of mechanisms. What has been done with these estimates is impressive and I'm not denying their usefulness but please do not let us dismiss the potential power inherent in the optimum design of Bessler's wheel because we are relying on data which relates to a device configured to fulfill a different purpose.

JC

[eccentrically1]

I thought the estimations for power didn't rely on size or number of the weights, just the weight lifted in so much time.

[John Collins]

I thought the estimations for power didn't rely on size or number of the weights, just the weight lifted in so much time.

Yes and the Mersebergwheel turned at twice the speed, same lift.

JC

[eccentrically1]

Didn't the kassel wheel lift 112 lbs and the meresburg 60 (wolff) or 70 to 80 (wagner)?
The hammers were 56 lbs (2) on the kassel and 19 lbs (4) on the meresburg.

If the kassel was supposed to turn slower because it was designed for the duration test, then comparing the two wheels' speeds may not reveal anything but that.

We have only the witness testimony to rely on; speculation has to begin and end there.

If the mechanical advantage the wheels had is irrelevant to output power, then the size and number of the weights is irrelevant to output power anyway, isn't it?

[John Collins]

I was suggesting that if he could make the Merseberg turn at 50 RPM then he could have designed the Kassel wheel to turn as fast, and therefore, with the same increased weight, produce more lift.

JC

[eccentrically1]

Well, maybe he could have, but that would be pure speculation based on no evidence.
Either the slower speed was a deliberate part of the design, or it was a limitation of the design.
We can't know for sure. Especially the potential power in the optimum design, because we don't know the design in either one.

[ovyyus]

Bessler claimed his Kassel wheel was his largest and most powerful wheel. Either he was telling the truth or he lied. If he was telling the truth, which I think is likely, then we need to reassess the actual power of all his wheels and attempt to separate Bessler's marketing tactics from reality.

[getterdone]

Hi JC , Einstein once said that if the facts dont fit with your theory, then change the facts, With that in mind , I dont recall Bessler ever saying that the ''soda can ''sized cylinders he took out of the wheel ,were weights used to power the wheel. I think it was the witnesses that assumed that they were, I might be wrong tho.(if they were used as weights then it just doesnt fit with my theory)
As far as the knocking goes, with that kind of money at play , I would certainly put some kind of noise maker in the wheel, to prevent the witnesses from figuring out the prime mover

With regards

Leo

[nicbordeaux]

Was the weight actually measured, even by somebody holding it, or was that just a guesstimate based on size and appearance of outide material ?

[ovyyus]

Leo, Wolff said that Bessler did not hide the fact that the weights provided the motive force for his wheel. Bessler also said he did not use any extra noise making weights or device inside the wheel.

BTW, the weights were never described as being the same shape as a soda can. They were described as feeling about 4 lbs, cylindrical, and not very thick. Based on Wolff's sketchy description they could have been like a small soda can, or sausage shaped, or like a disk, or anyone's guess.

[jim_mich]

For Reference...

3.52 inch diameter × 1 inch long = 4 Lb lead
2.49 inch diameter × 2 inch long = 4 Lb lead
2.03 inch diameter × 3 inch long = 4 Lb lead
1.76 inch diameter × 4 inch long = 4 Lb lead

4 inch diameter × 0.78 inch long = 4 Lb lead
3 inch diameter × 1.38 inch long = 4 Lb lead
2 inch diameter × 3.10 inch long = 4 Lb lead
1 inch diameter × 12.4 inch long = 4 Lb lead

Metric:
10 cm diameter × 2.03 cm long = 4 Lb lead
8 cm diameter × 3.18 cm long = 4 Lb lead
6 cm diameter × 5.65 cm long = 4 Lb lead
4 cm diameter × 12.71 cm long = 4 Lb lead

10.08 cm diameter × 2 cm long = 4 Lb lead
7.13 cm diameter × 4 cm long = 4 Lb lead
5.82 cm diameter × 6 cm long = 4 Lb lead
5.04 cm diameter × 8 cm long = 4 Lb lead
4.51 cm diameter × 10 cm long = 4 Lb lead

[getterdone]

Thanks for setting me strait Bill, I think I'm suffering from tunnel vision. I've had this idea in my head for a while now that the cylinder shapes were used as rollers and were not the actual weights that powered the wheel. I keep thinking that Bessler used linear weights to power his wheel(slithly warped/elongated boards). I dont disagree that Besslers wheel was powered by weights, just the type of weights he used.
I havn't seen anything in the shop to get me excited yet, it's just a theory

Thanks for the chart Jim

[ovyyus]

The only question of doubt lies in his comment that he could hear the sounds of about eight weights landing gently on the side towards which the wheel turned. His use of the word "about" is deliberate and conveys a feeling of uncertainty.

John, have you double-checked the Fischer translation? A second translation might help settle the matter.

[John Collins]

Bill, the exact phrase goes thus:

"à chaque tour de rouë en entend environs 8 poids, qui tombent doucement du coté que la rouë se tourne;"

Literally, " at each turn of the wheel one hears about 8 weights, which fall gently on the side to which the wheel is turned".

The key word is "environs", which translates to "about" or "thereabouts". It can also mean surrounding, neighbourhood and obviously is related to our word "environs"

From the free dictionry [French, from Old French, pl. of environ, circuit, from environ, round about; see environ.]

JC

[John Collins]

Can I just reiterate a point I wanted to make which seems to have got lost in my post.

If Bessler was able to make his first three wheels turn at 50 RPM regardless of whether they were one or two-way wheels, why would he make his final and most robustly built one, only able to turn at about half the speed of the others?

My suggestion was that it was so he could be sure that it would suffer less wear and tear during the long duration test because it would only have to to turn half the number of times, compared to say the Merseberg wheel.

We know he claimed to be able to make wheels that could turn slowly or faster, so this was deliberate. It seems to me that a slower turning wheel might produce less power than a faster turning one? If so that would explain the extra depth to his wheel when compared to the Merseberg one which was the same diameter but only a foot thick - he needed to add some extra weights.

Given that possibility I meant to suggest that perhaps it would be possible to produce a much faster turning wheel complete with extra weights that could generate the kind of power we seek for our modern electrical requirements.

JC