Could the Kasselwheel be heard during the 54 day endurance test? Yes!

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Michael
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re: Could the Kasselwheel be heard during the 54 day enduran

Post by Michael »

John you asked me what I meant. This is from your first main post. I bolded the areas in question.
Fischer von Erlach told us that the wheel turned at 26 RPM when unloaded. That is very roughly 2 seconds per turn. He told us that he could hear the sound of about eight weights landing gently on the side towards which the wheel turned. That works out at four sounds of weights landing every single second!

Wolff told us that the weights were about four pounds each and that conveniently for us translates to a four pound sledge hammer. We don't know how Bessler's weights acted but if they were mounted on a short lever, rod - or sledge hammer handle, then the wheel was receiving a pounding from four sledge hammers every second for almost two months. No wonder Bessler wanted to inspect his wheel after only two weeks; he didn't know if it might fall apart in another day or two!
Was it weights landing gently or a hard pounding from a four pound sledge hammer? Just because it was a four pound weight doesn't signify how hard it was slamming in the wheel, and a gentle sound is not enough to make noise throughout the whole castle no matter how many times a second it was occuring.


A bit of deductive reasoning and simple math will tell you what would happen if the banging was loud enough to be heard throughout the whole castle.

192 sounds a minute.
11,520 sounds an hour.
276,480 sounds a day.
14,929,920 sounds for a full fifty four days. That's over fourteen million.

Lead weights, soft and easily deformed.
Wood, brittle.
Felt, don't make me laugh.
Spring to absorb the impact, perfect reason. But then no loud banging.
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re: Could the Kasselwheel be heard during the 54 day enduran

Post by John Collins »

The point I was trying to make was that even though the four pound weight landed gently, it still carries considerable force and it could be enough to shake loose the fixings which held the wheel together, unless it was well reinforced. The sound of such heavy thumping, even if at the end of a short travel, might well carry further than the room and possibly into other areas of the castle.

Across the road from where I live, maybe two hundred yards away is a young lad who practises on his drums, in a back room on the other side of the house. You can hear him anywhere in our house and I know the neighbours hear him as well. Now that is just the sound of drum-sticks on some kind of animal skin or perhaps plastic. Bessler's wheel was like a huge drum and the sticks were four pound sledge hammers, do you seriously suggest no one could hear the wheel any further away than just outside the room?

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Post by jim_mich »

Michael wrote:Spring to absorb the impact, perfect reason. But then no loud banging.
How about a four pound weight hitting against a wooden or metallic plate which is attached to a spring. The spring would prevent the wood/metal plate from being beaten to pieces. The spring would produce an elastic collision whereby most all for the kinetic energy of the moving weight would transfer to the wheel.

The weights would sound like they were landing gently. Try it. Put a wooden block on a spring and then hit the block with a weight.


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re: Could the Kasselwheel be heard during the 54 day enduran

Post by Michael »

John you don't know if it was four pounds, or more as in a combination of four pound weights, or with how much force it was traveling at all.
do you seriously suggest no one could hear the wheel any further away than just outside the room?
Yes I do suggest that, but more specifically not through the whole castle. My ex girlfriend would occasionally overfill the dryer with 15 pounds of wet cloths. Which would off balance the dryer. With the door closed 10-20 feet away I could hear a muffled banging. Another 10 feet away behind the closed bedroom door at the back of the house I couldn't hear anything. Opening the door you'd hear a loud banging with the dryer violently shaking.
What would put this to rest would be observation, reports, of people hearing the banging of the wheel throughout the castle. I haven't read any. Are there? John a drum is designed to have its sound carried through space. I used my dryer example to counter your drum example but really we can't compare sounds like that. Point is neither of those are gentle. I don't see how anything can be gained past this unless you can supply quotes of people hearing the noise outside of the door, or studies showing a range of repetitive sounds, decibel level and how far they carry, along with the materials in the castles construction. For me though at the moment, the quote of a gentle landing, the report of upon opening the sealed door it was observed that the wheel was still running, yet no mention of hearing a noise in that report prior to opening the door, along with no mention of hearing the noise outside of the door is good enough for me.
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re: Could the Kasselwheel be heard during the 54 day enduran

Post by daxwc »

I have heard the run/movement:
however have not seen it, at the test/inspection of everyone;
it was sealed up by the prince, in order to always produce/foster,
the well regulated run.
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re: Could the Kasselwheel be heard during the 54 day enduran

Post by Michael »

Well that might work. Daxwc who's quote was that? Where were they?
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re: Could the Kasselwheel be heard during the 54 day enduran

Post by daxwc »

It is supposedly in the third party endorsements in DT by G.M. Meetsma, it was written in old Dutch, although it doesn’t look like it is in the digital version that I have. Stewart will have to weigh in as to where it exactly is because as you know DT is in German and Latin not Dutch.

Stewart translation:
On the PERPETUUM MOBILE, invented
by Mr. Councillor ORFFYRE, and made by his/its
honourable art-lover in
Castle Weissenstein at Cassel.

A self/same weight, to make heavy and light.
Light and heavy to make his strange thing!

The sea/lake/more* in a/one round/circle;
very sealed shut, so nicely/curiously thumped/bumped/knocked,
to turn around upon its axle, indeed to swing/turn to the right and to the left,
truly a beautiful invention.

I have heard the run/movement:
however have not seen it, at the test/inspection of everyone;
it was sealed up by the prince, in order to always produce/foster,
the well regulated run.

The art is genuine;
I can firmly assert it, solemnly/by_all_that_is_holy,
this is my testimony.

G.M. Meetsma.
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re: Could the Kasselwheel be heard during the 54 day enduran

Post by rlortie »

Quote:
Finally press Bessler praises to his address a number of learned contemporaries off (pp. 145-172), including a poem in Dutch GM Meetsma (p. 169), undoubtedly the Dutch hydraulic engineer George Michael Meetsma, in the region Cassel worked. Meetsma he writes that the invention in slot Weissenstein in Kassel have heard but not seen, because it was sealed by the frost. It is these testimonies, along with what Bessler writes, which are our main sources for Besslers claim.


http://bc.library.uu.nl/nl/node/140

Translation:

http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... d%3Dimvnso
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re: Could the Kasselwheel be heard during the 54 day enduran

Post by rlortie »

Another Dutch translation, a little different from the one above.

http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... d%3Dimvnso
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re: Could the Kasselwheel be heard during the 54 day enduran

Post by John Collins »

No I don't know if it was four pounds or more, Michael, or how much force it was travelling with (tiredly). My point that it could be heard outside the room has been backed up by the Dutch hydraulic engineer George Michael Meetsma's account, thank you Ralph for your link to the quotation. I can now add the Utrecht's copy to my list of those containing the double portrait.

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re: Could the Kasselwheel be heard during the 54 day enduran

Post by daxwc »

So now you have three JC? Two different publication runs?
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Re: re: Could the Kasselwheel be heard during the 54 day end

Post by murilo »

[quote="rlortie"]Quote:
Finally press Bessler praises to his address a number of learned contemporaries off (pp. 145-172), including a poem in Dutch GM Meetsma (p. 169), undoubtedly the Dutch hydraulic engineer George Michael Meetsma, in the region Cassel worked. Meetsma he writes that the invention in slot Weissenstein in Kassel have heard but not seen, because it was sealed by the frost. It is these testimonies, along with what Bessler writes, which are our main sources for Besslers claim.


http://bc.library.uu.nl/nl/node/140


In above link, they said very clearly:


''Aan de achterkant van het voorplat is een portret van hem te zien als wiskundige in dienst van landgraaf Karel van Hessen-Kassel, met daar overheen nog een afbeelding van hem, nu omgeven door wiskundige instrumenten waarbij zijn gezicht is uitgesneden, maar over het eerste portret valt.''

And I have no idea about what means these words! 8C
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re: Could the Kasselwheel be heard during the 54 day enduran

Post by rlortie »

murilo,

It starts out with; ''At the back of the front cover is a portrait of him as mathematician employed by countries etc... I did not bother translating all as is not irrelevant to the machine.

It is simply a description of the portraits, the mathematical tools depicted and the cutouts.
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Re: re: Could the Kasselwheel be heard during the 54 day end

Post by Grimer »

rlortie wrote:Daxwc,
The sea/lake/more* in a/one round/circle;
A search on my part concludes that the word 'Meer' also translates to 'Boundary'... Such as; Bound in one round/circle very sealed shut,

Meer; is possibly old French for sea.

Ralph
Presumably the English word "mere" for a lake comes from the Dutch. "meer".
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re: Could the Kasselwheel be heard during the 54 day enduran

Post by John Collins »

...and the 'slot' mentioned earlier probably comes from the German 'schloss' for castle.

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