Mayday! Mayday!!!

[Bill_Mothershead]

Sorry raj,

WM2D simulation says it is balanced.

Everything swings around a bit at the start,
but that is likely due to the "snap-to-grid" effect
of building it with the CAD editor.

[raj]

Thanks a lot to both of you, Path_Finder and Bill, for your drawings.

For now, I have only this to say:' Oh, hell! There's is nothing wrong in trying. On the contrary it is free mental exercise.'

Raj

[murilo]

Common! Common, Raj!
Not so easy, Raj!
You can still try to 'manage' your wheel's keeling!
Why not?
You can use a gear at main axle that will force to what is in 6h to stay at 3h!
This gear will need to it's own drive, or charge, to keep unbalanced, ok?
After this you'll design to a trigger system! (this is another stuff that people still use to forget!)
BAM, forget to all pendulum additions and temptations! 8[
Best of learning!
M

[Bill_Mothershead]

Path:[quote]Dear raj,
IMHO your wheel will rapidly and unfortunately reach this keeling position.[/quote]

Murilo:[quote]You can still try to 'manage' your wheel's keeling! [/quote]

Possible misunderstanding of of raj's design. In his drawing,
the big round weight directly under the axel is actually hanging
from the axel, somewhat like MT13. This weight does NOT change
position. It remains directly UNDER the axel at all times.

There is [b]NO keeling[/b] in this design. The weights on the left
will always balance with the weights on the right.

I have tried simulating some simple variations of the design
by having this "second axel/anchor point" move to other
positions. Interesting, but was still always in balance.

[murilo]

Bill,
thanks!
But I'm still not sure if a very fast command is not possible, even if this wheel has 2 axles, where one is not hold and free.
'Very fast' means something able to act following, before turning, or moving after that '6h' artificially left to fall back.
In my simple mind, keeling is ~ same as balancing.
Best!
M

[rlortie]

There is NO keeling in this design. The weights on the left
will always balance with the weights on the right.

In my simple mind, keeling is ~ same as balancing.

Keeling and balance are one and the same. A wheel or pendulum is said to be in balance when at rest. This holds true even if the device is perfectly statically and dynamically balanced. A wheel or pendulum is not in balance when in motion no matter where the COM or COG may fall.

If the weights on the left balance with those on the right then the machine is in a non-moving 'keeled' position. If the wheel is indeed perfectly balanced, the keel position will land at any degree when friction brings it to a halt,where it becomes balanced.

[murilo]

Thanx, Ralph!
Now and finally my simple mind has company! 8]
Best!
M

[Bill_Mothershead]

Let me rephrase that...

No matter how you manually position the wheel before you release it,
the wheel will not move. It is balanced in all possible positions.

Somehow I got mixed up and thought that the word "Keeling" is an
active verb, implying the activity of moving. I suppose it doesn't. My bad.

[ovyyus]

A wheel or pendulum is not in balance when in motion no matter where the COM or COG may fall.

A balanced flywheel is still balanced when in motion.

[Michael]

Actually Bill_Mothershead in way you are right as far as BesslerWheel goes. The word can be used as either a noun or a verb. The dictionary has a fuller description. I think it was Mr. Tim who first brought the term keeling in to Besslerwheel, his description roughly being ( copied from wiki );

The main problem with "overbalanced" wheel designs in general is "keeling." That is the tendency of an allegedly overbalanced wheel to become "bottom heavy," or to "keel" like a ship in the sea. Once any wheel has keeled, it requires a net input of energy to keep it going.

From a dictionary;

noun
1. Nautical . a central fore-and-aft structural member in the bottom of a hull, extending from the stem to the sternpost and having the floors or frames attached to it, usually at right angles: sometimes projecting from the bottom of the hull to provide stability.
2. Literary . a ship or boat.
3. a part corresponding to a ship's keel in some other structure, as in a dirigible balloon.
4. ( initial capital letter ) Astronomy . the constellation Carina.
5. Botany, Zoology . a longitudinal ridge, as on a leaf or bone; a carina.


Verb phrase
8. keel over,
a. to capsize or overturn.
b. to fall as in a faint: Several cadets keeled over from the heat during the parade.
Idiom
9. on an even keel, in a state of balance; steady; steadily: The affairs of state are seldom on an even keel for long.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Origin:
1325–75; 1895–1900 for def. 8; Middle English kele < Old Norse kj&#491;lr; cognate with Old English c&#275;ol keel, ship; see keel2

Related forms
keeled, adjective Dictionary.com Unabridgedkeel3 &#8194; &#8194;/kil/ Show Spelled[keel] Show IPA
verb (used with object) British Dialect .
to cool, especially by stirring.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Origin:
before 900; Middle English kelen, Old English c&#275;lan to be cool; akin to cool

[raj]

Is the one below, a Killer, a Keeler or neither?

Whatever? It's my latest and best gravity wheel design so far.

Raj

[raj]

I, hereby, wish to humbly clarify something to all forum members.

I am here on this forum to share my ideas and designs with you all.
I am not here to prove that my ideas/designs are good in any way.
I leave it to forum members to decide on that.

But one thing I appreciate much: Learning from you all and your kind comments.
And for that, I say a big thank you.
Please keep your comments coming.

Raj

[path_finder]

Dear raj,
Can you complete your drawing, indicating where are the pivots (bearings?) and where are the fixed pins? Thanks.

[raj]

Path_finder, more than happy to oblige.

So here we go!

1. A large drum wheel(1)with an inner second rim(2) inside, on horizontal axle(3)(as in most of my designs)
2. A smaller VERY HEAVY cylindrical wheel(4), half the size in diameter to that of the second inner rim(2) on which it rolls freely.
3. There are 8 (pairs) rollers/stops(7) at 45 degrees intervals on the outer rim of the drum wheel(1).
4. there are four pivots (points) at 90 degrees interval on the heavy cylindrical wheel(4).
5. A pair of identical arms(5) pivoting on each pivot on the cylindrical wheel(4), with one identical weight(6) at the other end.
6. Each one of pairs of arm(5)/weight(6) on one pivot/points of wheel(4)can only move, roll and rest between pairs of diametrically opposite rollers/stops(7).

Design intention.
1. The wheel(4) is supposed to be very heavy, so that it can maintain its lowest point on the inner rim(2).
2. The weights(6) are supposed to act directly on drum wheel(1) at the outer rim, making torque calculation very easy.
3. At the frozen instant of the gravity wheel at the 12 o'clock positions on both the drum wheel(1) and wheel(4), (see drawing above) there is small net positive counter-clockwise torque, which should make the gravity wheel turn counter-clockwise.
4. Any slight counter-clockwise turning of the gravity wheel(1), WILL make top weight(6) drop on the roller/stop counter-clockwise below, which must ACCENTUATE the counter-clockwise momentum.

I sincerely hope the above and the drawing below will help you understand my gravity wheel concept.

Raj

[daanopperman]

Raj ,
Imagin a solid balanced wheel , side view , split vertical down the center to give a left and right side . You are now going to move the left side of the weight of the wheel further away from the axel to make it oob on the left side to make the wheel turn ccw , remember the wheel was balanced before . What is going to happen to the weight on the left side of the wheel . In Pic 2 we have a top view of the balanced wheel with 2 pictures inside , in the top pic we start of with a black (1) outline where the wheel is balanced , in the red outline (2) we have moved the weight of the wheel on the left side further away from the axel , but as you can see , the wheel has now a new shape , in the blue outline (3) the weight on the left is moved even further away from the axel , but again the wheel takes on a new shape . In all the time that we have moved the weight on the left side further away from the axel , the wheel was still balanced . Why ? Because the weight on the left side has never changed , we have exactly the same mass as we started off with . Yes , you have gained a lot of leverage , but the longer your lever becomes , the smaller your mass gets on you lever , you gain one but loose another . This is not to tell you your thoughts is wrong , it is here to send you on a shortcut to where we want to get to . To make a balanced wheel unbalanced , you need to put more weight , extra weight , on a part of the wheel and always keep that extra weight at that point even if the wheel has turned . To make a balanced wheel turn , you need input energy , even gravity , that is where we must spend time .
In the second drawing on Pic 2 is just what happens if you put the weight closer to the axel also in 1 2 3 steps . I hope you can see what I try to convey .
D.O.