A Motion Machine

[Fletcher]

I think you are wrong to rule the first three wheels as Bessler storing & replenishing 'fuel' inside these wheels simply because there were no long duration tests.

After every wheel was publicly displayed he addressed his critics & detractors, that's what his books were about - often they called for more rigorous tests.

Eventually a protocol was established acceptable to the panel that would issue the certificate of authenticity etc e.g. two-way operation, shifting to another location, open journals, long duration running.

Bessler invited the panel to experiment with his wheel, the only proviso being that they not over-speed it - but they could not look inside it.

Also, if the last wheels, which started & accelerated from a slight push could pass the testing & then complete an endurance test then why wouldn't the same principle be found inside his earlier wheels ?

Your conclusion would suggest he 'pre-stored fuel/energy' in the earlier wheels but then as the test protocol got harder he finally stumbled on a different method - unlikely IMO.

[eccentrically1]

So there is only one choice then, good.
They all "manifested energy" internally on demand.

[Fletcher]

That might not satisfy people who think he 'faked' it by introducing a fuel - that depends on how you define fake, fraud & fuel in terms of JB calling it intrinsic motion & true PM.

And it won't satisfy people who want to rescind the mechanical lessons of the 'law of levers' in a gravity field.

You can't diminish the human spirit, it'll bounce right back, even when faced with evidence & facts.

[eccentrically1]

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. Abe Lincoln.

You can't fool Mother Nature. Public domain

So he could have faked it and we are some of the people he fooled because we met his terms of fuel, fake and fraud.

The people who want to rescind the law of levers are, well, you can't keep a good man down.

[Fletcher]

Or he was genuine - he said he had an intrinsic motion machine [IMM] that HE called also a 'true' PMM - Wagner pointed out that a spring wound wheel was also an IMM but not true PM - the conclusion being that a true PMM could also be an IMM but that didn't necessarily flow the other direction.

I am of the view that placing any sort of energy source into the wheel in the form of Potential Energy before operation could not be construed as true PM, under any circumstance.

I do accept that giving a wheel a push start or instigating rotation via another means as a form of activation is acceptable, & indeed a necessity, if the force is derived by dynamic motion or motion which he says it is & that would be true PM [without defining the energy source].


In my mind, for the benefit of those pursuing Cf as the elusive force, & it were to work in allowing undiminishing rotation & momentum with or without load, until the parts needed replacing, I would call that true PMM also, if the force were not disclosed & energy source identified, in generic terms.

[Fletcher]

... & also said that OOB was a waste of effort & time as he learned the hard way

I don't think that is an accurate statement Fletcher. He never said OOB wheels were a waste of time and effort. He said moving a weight " a little closer to the axle " may be a waste of time. I believe he moved his weights ( in his gravity powered wheel ;) ) more than a little.

Sorry justsomeone, missed your post so here's the quote from AP - I don't think there is much room for doubt about what he meant, so being 'a waste of time & effort' would seem accurate to me, especially when read in context with all the other surrounding statements ;7)

"Many would-be Mobile-makers think that if they can arrange for some of the weights to be a little more distant from the center than the others, then the thing will surely revolve.

A few years ago, I learned all about this the hard way.

And then the truth of the old proverb came home to me that one has to learn through bitter experience." - pg 295-296

[rasselasss]

Danopperman,i had a brother he was employed as a Govt. Scientist(deceased 20 years ago)he was into hydraulics and sonic ideas he would demonstrate the high pitch note to shatter a glass and cold /hot air reaction and with a blast of compressed air how to create a vacumn for a split second.....i was always into mechanical ideas and persued that career....along with the other bloggers the clarity of the thoughts expressed demonstrate the grasp of the individual knowledge and i'm sure to all who read will provide "food for thought"..Thanks.

[justsomeone]

wiki page clues AP high wrote:

"Many would-be Mobile-makers think that if they can arrange for some of the weights to be a little more distant from the center than the others, then the thing will surely revolve.

A few years ago, I learned all about this the hard way.

And then the truth of the old proverb came home to me that one has to learn through bitter experience." - pg 295-296

I think there is a lot of room for doubt. Read the same quote without the two words " a little ". If it was worded as such, I might agree with you. Bessler chose his words carefully.

[Unbalanced]

Hello Justsomeone,

You have mentioned twice that you feel that shifting the weights a great deal to create OOB is perhaps fundamental to success.

I have found through my own experimenting that this is not necessarily the case.

Offsetting the weights a great deal requires a great deal more energy than moving them say just a fraction of an inch off balance. The results though are the same. Though it may seem that a great deal more mechanical advantage is achieved with a longer throw, the energy required to accomplish this, offsets the gain and in my experience i.e. experiments, it is awash. Small throw, small amount of energy required, no energy gained, Large throw, large amount of energy required still no energy gained, not even a break-even scenario regardless of the configuration.

[justsomeone]

Maybe so Curtis but:

Weights gained force from their own swinging (or movement).

- Bessler


Longer movement = more force?


Weights came to be placed together, arranged one against another.

- Bessler


This happens in a design with the weights shifting close to the axle and one side appears empty and one side full.

[Andyb]

To all,hi,i have built about 150 wheels centered around moving large weights in a wheel at the one o clock position and the 7 o clock position,the one o clock over to the right to then park and the 7 o clock to the right to gain clockwise rotation never got any thing to work it did create torque but only for 20 or 30 degrees,these designs all create a high negative torque weight they will not rotate well with force applied into the rim with out vibration smashing into the wheel which creates so much force that the frame work holding the wheel in position moves across the floor by 2 or 3 inchs,failures yes ,but lessons to learn,
Now i am working with a frame work surrounding a hanging weight there are again 9 hanging weights and a thread to pivit on ,on these threads ends are locked arms again connected to cross bars and then again onto locked arms the to a pivit thread again and through the wheel to the reverse side where the same is done again,this gives you a frame work to apply weight on to, to create movement of the hanging weight,this system only works if the two crossbar one on the front the other on the rear are arranged with a 90 to 120 degree angle,this angle allows for force to be applied to the cross bars at any position in the wheel with both bars working together to create a push and pull motion ,nothing amaizing there.The design does creates very low negative torque and will rotate to 50 rpm easily no vibration every thing simply goes around together,again nothing special there ,what is interesting is that the weights when locked into positions say right angles from there hanging positions create motion to fall and reduced weight lift which adds up to a higher weight of oob than my previous wheels tests, basically these hanging weights moving closer and further from the axis create more force and less negative torque weight.

Finally i will get to my point, this force seems more based on momentum from the swing, i know that lifting the weight uses gravity and lift to create rotation but if you can gently cause it to swing in your desired direction then it is very easy to get the wheel to very slowly rotate,now im not saying i have it because i still have to find the prime mover i believe ,but i will say its the closest i have come so far,and i am wondering like others is this gravity or momentum,help if you can please im still confused

[rasselasss]

Andyb,..i have to say i admire your perseverence to achieve what you have done,...i'm no expert,but i think you are near the "end game",others here will no doubt,give you their wisdom and advice ...crack on and good luck.

[rlortie]

And then the truth of the old proverb came home to me that one has to learn through bitter experience." - pg 295-296

I bring your attention to the last paragraph:1:15-25; There's more five's for John to elaborate on!

New International Version (©1984)
This was the appearance and structure of the wheels: They sparkled like chrysolite, and all four looked alike. Each appeared to be made like a wheel intersecting a wheel.

New Living Translation (©2007)
The wheels sparkled as if made of beryl. All four wheels looked alike and were made the same; each wheel had a second wheel turning crosswise within it.

English Standard Version (©2001)
As for the appearance of the wheels and their construction: their appearance was like the gleaming of beryl. And the four had the same likeness, their appearance and construction being as it were a wheel within a wheel.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
The appearance of the wheels and their workmanship was like sparkling beryl, and all four of them had the same form, their appearance and workmanship being as if one wheel were within another.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
This is how the wheels looked and how they were made: They looked like beryl. All four wheels looked the same. They looked like a wheel within a wheel.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
The appearance of the wheels and their workings was like the color of beryl: and the four had the same likeness: and their appearance and their workings was, as it were, a wheel in the middle of a wheel.

American King James Version
The appearance of the wheels and their work was like to the color of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel.

American Standard Version
The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto a beryl: and they four had one likeness; and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel within a wheel.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And the appearance of the wheels, and the work of them was like the appearance of the sea: and the four had all one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the midst of a wheel.

Darby Bible Translation
The appearance of the wheels and their work was as the look of a chrysolite; and they four had one likeness; and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel.

English Revised Version
The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel within a wheel.

Webster's Bible Translation
The appearance of the wheels and their work was like the color of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel.

World English Bible
The appearance of the wheels and their work was like a beryl: and the four of them had one likeness; and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel within a wheel.

Young's Literal Translation
The appearance of the wheels and their works is as the colour of beryl, and one likeness is to them four, and their appearances and their works are as it were the wheel in the midst of the wheel.
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

The appearance of the wheels, and their work, was like unto the colour of a beryl,.... Which is a precious stone; see Exodus 28:20; the Syriac version renders it a chrysolite; the Arabic, a jasper; and so may denote the preciousness, glory, and excellency of the churches, and the true members of them, which are as jewels and pearls of great price in the esteem of Christ; and the colour of this stone being a sea green, from whence it has here the name of "tarshish", a word sometimes used for the sea, may signify the fluctuating and uncertain state of the churches in this world, and in their present circumstances:

and they four had one likeness: this shows that there were four wheels, and that they were all alike, as the true churches of Christ are; they are alike gathered out of the world, and consist of the same sort of persons, true believers in Christ; they profess the same faith; they have the same officers and ordinances; keep up the same discipline, and are under the same form of government, and have all the same power and authority:

and their appearance and work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel; not as if one wheel was comprehended and included in another; for then one must be lesser than another; whereas all the wheels were alike, as for form, so for size; but the work or make of them was in a transverse way, or cross way; just as two hoops may be put together cross ways, and so form four semicircles, and these a globe or sphere; hence this wheel is called "an orb" or "globe", in Ezekiel 10:13; and it was on those four semicircles that the four faces of the ox, the man, the lion, and eagle, were engraved; the reason of their being wrought in this form was, for the motion of them; as follows:
Geneva Study Bible

The appearance of the wheels and their work was like the colour of a {k} beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel.

(k) The Hebrew word is tarshish meaning that the colour was like the Cilician Sea, or a precious stone so called.
Wesley's Notes

1:16 Work - All that was wrought, whether engraved or otherwise was of one colour. Beryl - A sea green. One likeness - The same for dimensions, colour, frame, and motion. In the middle - It is probable, the wheels were framed so as to be an exact sphere, which is easily rolled to any side.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

16. appearance . work-their form and the material of their work.

beryl-rather, "the glancing appearance of the Tarshish stone"; the chrysolite or topaz, brought from Tarshish or Tartessus in Spain. It was one of the gems in the breastplate of the high priest (Ex 28:20; So 5:14; Da 10:6).

four had one likeness-The similarity of the wheels to one another implies that there is no inequality in all God's works, that all have a beautiful analogy and proportion.
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

1:15-25 Providence, represented by the wheels, produces changes. Sometimes one spoke of the wheel is uppermost, sometimes another; but the motion of the wheel on its own axletree is regular and steady. We need not despond in adversity; the wheels are turning round and will raise us in due time, while those who presume in prosperity know not how soon they may be cast down. The wheel is near the living creatures; the angels are employed as ministers of God's providence. The spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels; the same wisdom, power, and holiness of God, that guide and govern the angels, by them order all events in this lower world. The wheel had four faces, denoting that the providence of God exerts itself in all parts. Look every way upon the wheel of providence, it has a face toward you. Their appearance and work were as a wheel in the middle of a wheel. The disposals of Providence seem to us dark, perplexed, and unaccountable, yet are all wisely ordered for the best. The motion of these wheels was steady, regular, and constant. They went as the Spirit directed, therefore returned not. We should not have to undo that by repentance which we have done amiss, if we followed the guidance of the Spirit. The rings, or rims of the wheels were so vast, that when put in motion the prophet was afraid to look upon them. The consideration of the height and depth of God's counsel should awe us. They were full of eyes round about. The motions of Providence are all directed by infinite Wisdom. All events are determined by the eyes of the Lord, which are in every place beholding the evil and the good; for there is no such thing as chance or fortune. The firmament above was a crystal, glorious, but terribly so. That which we take to be a dark cloud, is to God clear as crystal, through which he looks upon all the inhabitants of the earth. When the angels had roused a careless world, they let down their wings, that God's voice might be plainly heard. The voice of Providence is to open men's ears to the voice of the word. Sounds on earth should awaken our attention to the voice from heaven; for how shall we escape, if we turn away from Him that speaks from thence.

[Bill_Mothershead]

For those of you who just read/skimmed rlortie's post
and didn't have a clue what you were looking at,
it is about Ezekiel's wheel.

Here is a page of it from the King Jame's version:
(important stuff in lines 15-25)
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv ... te=3072969

A quick look at Wikipedia shows that it has confused
and confounded people for thousands of years.
(warning: full of religious stuff...skim or skip it.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkabah

Link to easy reading, UFO kind of interpretation (picture/artwork):
http://www.thelightside.org/EARSite/ear ... iles1.html

Getting clues and inspiration out of the Bible is hard work
and I must say, well done here.

A summary of the findings might be helpful.

[Mark]

About a year ago, Jim mentioned that quote in the In search for the prime mover thread. I took that opportunity to make a request, to which I saw no response:

Jim mentioned a quote that certainly fits the topic at hand...

"I also think it's a good thing to be completely clear about one further point. Many would-be mobile-makers think that if they can arrange for some of the weights to be a little more distant from the center than the others, then the thing will surely revolve. A few years ago I learned all about this the hard way. And then the truth of the old proverb came home to me that one has to learn through bitter experience. There's a lot more to matters of mechanics than I've revealed to date, but since there's no urgent need involved, I'll refrain from giving more information at the moment."

I understand what it means to learn something through bitter experience, believe me. But, would someone please jog my memory as to the actual proverb that Bessler refers to. I just draw a blank.

( presuming, of course, that the passage is accurately translated ;-)

I'm sorry, Ralph, but I fail to see the connection between "Any lesson worth learning is worth learning the hard way" and Ezekiel's wheel. Can you enlighten me?

My current interpretation of that quote is that Bessler was saying that the way to the answer is via the perspective gained as a result of trial and error. Taking the basics and working from there to the next step(s) in the developmental process, while eliminating as best one can the natural tendency of getting locked into a state of tunnel vision that comes from what one "knows" to be the correct method.
It would surely be a bittersweet moment when one has spent a fair portion of one's time making all the mistakes and missteps in cut-and-try mode, trying all kinds of complex methods, only to find the answer to be plain and simple.


[By the way - any time I make a comment about translations being accurate it is certainly not meant to belittle those who take on that task, it is made in reference to the complexity involved.]