Alexioco wrote:It is possible that Bessler did hint at an internal wheel because Bessler says near the end of his poem:
"He will drench me with his spittle so that I will lose my temper and, in a sudden fit, cast aside the mantle that conceals my wheel!"
It is my opinion that Bessler sometimes hints at the internal parts of his wheel by describing the external parts or situations etc...
Alex
Come on Alex, Bessler is talking about removing the cloth covering on the wheel that conceals the inside of the wheel.
There was no inner wheel. Inside there was simply a number of identical mechanisms, probable three or four. Each mechanism had two weights in the uni-directional wheels, and four weights with each mechanism in the bi-directional wheels. According to Karl, when one first looks at these mechanisms, they seem way too simple.
Jim I agree that is what he is talking about but at the same time I wander whether he is hinting that the wheel concealed by his mantle has a double meaning so to speak. Bessler also says that fly-wheels are not to be sniffed at. It doesnt definately mean that he used an internal wheel but at times it does seem as though he hints at an internal wheel. I agree with you also that his wheel could not have ran off gravity alone because a weight cannot rise any higher from the level from which it fell from. The force of Besslers weights or their intertia when circulating the wheel could explain the motion but something would need to maintain their momentum.
Alex
"A great craftsman would be that man who can 'lightly' cause a heavy weight to fly upwards!..." (Page: 291)
Did anyone ever stop to think about why Bessler said this? What is a flywheel? It is a device for storing rotary motion. And what is rotary motion? Fly-wheel rotary motion is stored momentum of a weight-mass.
Ok, now, what is CF? It is the effect of rotary motion. More precisely, CF is the the effect of momentum of a weight while in rotary motion.
I'm very certain that after Bessler built so many wheels, he must have became very familiar with CF. Every time he tested a wheel, CF would have interfered with the motions of his weights. Sooner or later, eventual, he had to confront CF and attempt to either defeat it, or use it.
“But this I dare to claim – if God allowed me a long enough life I could make my wheel go really slowly, with a gentle rhythm, and it would still be able to raise even greater weights!�
It would seem that the current wheels required a suffcient velocity to maintain operation. This sounds like momentum too.
Edit:
I have just been analying the following quote:
"Herr Wagner says that my machine does not, under any circumstances, derive its motive force from the noisy weights. In other words, he declares that the mechanism that causes all the clattering (which was commented on earlier and which was noted by so many people) is not, in fact, the thing which causes the rotation of my Wheel. The clattering noise you refer to is, I assure you, a phenomenon caused directly by the real motive power of the machine, and nothing else. You also wish me to inform you why the Draschwitz machine did not create a similar noise; well, I'll tell you. The two machines can easily be contrasted, as they worked on quite different principles. The former (Draschwitz) one turned in only one direction, but the latter (Merseburg ) one turned, as everyone could see, both ways. The former was provided with felt coverings, but the latter was as bare as a bald head. I have many other machines of various types - some, for instance, with weights, others without."
I have tried to sum it up as - The mechanism/real motive power caused all the clattering of the noisy weights as they produced their motive force causing the wheel to rotate.
So its possible that the circulating weights together within the wheel supplied their momentum to a mechanism which in turn acted back on those weights thus sustaining rotation?
Alex
"A great craftsman would be that man who can 'lightly' cause a heavy weight to fly upwards!..." (Page: 291)
Bessler said: "A wheel appear - or is it a wheel? Because it doesn't have a normal rim" (or something like that).
A drum or a cylinder - the external wheel - appears to have nothing else but a normal rim.
So what wheel was he talking about?
The prime mover...?
ruggero ;-)
Contradictions do not exist.
Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises.
You will find that one of them is wrong. - Ayn Rand -
Bessler wrote:A wheel appears - is it really a wheel, for it does not have a normal rim.
It revolves, but without other wheels inside or outside,
and without weights, wind, or springs.
300 years ago "wheels" where made of wood and had steel rims. Bessler's wheel didn't have a steel rim. Thus its rim was not normal like common wagon and coach wheels.
The metal rims go back further than 300 years and also there was metal bushing in the hub to be greased. The rims where for protection from rocks and bad surfaces or the wheel would not last. An elevated wheel would not need a metal rim but still be a wheel, like flywheel. The resemblance as a wheel seems to be obvious. But if it had a wheel on the inside? It seems a flywheel would be the top possibility.
"Our education can be the limitation to our imagination, and our dreams"
"...So if one wants to call a disc or narrow cylinder, rotating about its horizontally placed axis in the manner of a grindstone, a 'wheel', so can the main piece of my machine also therefore be called;..."
Why doesn't he just call it a drum or cylinder or disc, if that is was it is?
What difference does it make, what he calls it?
Because a 'wheel' are interpreted by most people of something round rotating about its its horizontally placed axis....and he wanted people not to misunderstand the orientation of his drum?
ruggero ;-)
Contradictions do not exist.
Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises.
You will find that one of them is wrong. - Ayn Rand -
Because a 'wheel' are interpreted by most people of something round rotating about its its horizontally placed axis.
That is what people today consider a wheel. Back 300 years ago a wheel were mostly the round things with hubs, spokes, and rims on carts, wagons, and carriages.
The only big solid round things back then were usually water wheels or grindstones, and a grindstone is what Bessler used to describe his wheel. Bessler lists a number of words, "disc or narrow cylinder", to describe it. IIRC, he described it as a tympani, which today we call a bass drum. After using these descriptive words, he says, if you call these things a wheel, then so can his machine be called a wheel.
Bessler never talked about there being an inner wheel in his wheel. The whole concept of an inner wheel is simply a misunderstanding stemming from the way in which this one translation of Bessler's writing was worded.
What's the use of forcibly arguing whether Bessler wheel had an inner wheel or not. Neither can be proven with concrete evidence.
I believe for our common sake, each design or idea presented on this forum related to a self-turning wheel or whatever, should be looked at with unbiased eyes, based on current knowledge.
Hopefully if a runner is ever found, it is comparable with what we expect to find in Bessler wheel.
If Bessler had definately described his wheel having a square form, we wouldn't see many round ones on this site.
We are all different and everyone has his own way of attacking a problem, that gives him reason, enlightment, joy, fulfillment or even understanding.
Some like to jump into the deep sea eyes closed without any hesitation - others like to feel the surface first to see the temperature or to reassure that it's not frozen stiff ice.
Hell...some people spend their whole life thinking about where the universe came from - while others, the really couldn't care less.
I hope that each find his way, that suit him best.
ruggero ;-)
Contradictions do not exist.
Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises.
You will find that one of them is wrong. - Ayn Rand -
"...So if one wants to call a disc or narrow cylinder, rotating about its horizontally placed axis in the manner of a grindstone, a 'wheel', so can the main piece of my machine also therefore be called;..."
So if that is only the "Main" piece of the wheel, then what is the rest of it?
Possibly a drum, tympani or another wheel camouflaged to hide the Main piece?
My point being; we have no proof of which translation we should put our faith in, one or the other or neither! Bessler Plays with words otherwise why would he add; 'main piece of my machine if it does not imply that you have not heard the rest of the story.
Keep an open mind and either except the fact that he built a PM wheel or he didn't!
Even if he didn't, does not give us reason to stop looking. I believe I can rest assured that Bessler never dreamed of man breaking the sound barrier but we did it anyway!
I don't know if this helps, but here are the translations of the same text which I'm aware of:-
"For as a grindstone may be called a wheel, so may the principle part of my machine be named.
The outward part is drawn over or covered withwaxed linen, in the form of a drum. This cylindrical basis was 12 Rhenish fee in diameter, the thickness from 15 to 18 inches, the middle axle 6 feet long and 8 inches in thickness. It is supported in its movement on two pointed steel balance-pegs, each 1 inch thick; and the wheel is verticallysuspended. The movement is modified by two pendulums, as shown in the engraving at the ends of this book."
H. Dircks, Pepetuum Mobile, vol 2 1870.
"For as a grindstone may be called a wheel, so may the principle part of my machine be named.
The outward part is drawn over or covered withwaxed linen, in the form of a drum. This cylindrical basis was 12 Rhenish fee in diameter, the thickness from 15 to 18 inches, the middle axis 6 feet long and 8 inches in thickness. It is supported in its movement on two pointed steel pivots, each 1 inch thick; and the wheel stands vertically. The movement is controlled by two pendulums, as shown in the engraving at the ends of this book."
R.T. GOuld, Oddities, 1928
"Consider now a disc or narrow cylinder revolving about its horizontal axis rather in the manner of a grindstone; if you call this a ‘wheel’ then that is also a description of the main part of my machine. This wheel consists of a tympanum or drum, covered externally with stretched canvas, 12 Rhenish feet in diameter, and 15 or 18 inches wide. The axle, which passes through the centre of the wheel, is 6 feet long and 8 inches in diameter, and in its movement is supported at each end by an almost one-inch thick steel bearing.The bearings taper somewhat, and the arrangement has been designed in such a way that the rotational movement of the entire vertically suspended wheel can be slightly modified by the application on each side of small weights, as the appended plans at the end of the treatise clearly demonstrate."
John Collins, Das Triumphans.
"Around the firmly placed horizontal axis is a rotating disc (low or narrow cylinder) which resembles a grindstone. This disc can be called the principle piece of my machine. Accordingly, this wheel consists of an external wheel (or drum) for raising weights which is covered with stretched linen. The base of the cylinder is 12 Rhenish feet in diameter. The height (or thickness) is between 15 and 18 inches. The axle (or shaft) passing through the center is 6 feet long and 8 inches thick cross-sectionally. While in motion it is supported by two almost one-inch-thick tapered steel pegs, whose two bearings (or sockets) with two curves around the axle provide the rotational motion of the whole vertically suspended wheel through application of pendula, which can be somewhat modified, as the attached figures at the end of this treatise clearly show."
Provided by Al Bacon, Translation by Ted of Chicago, Besslerwheel forum
Some variety but the basic information seems ok to me.
