Bessler's Second possible secret of Genuis

[murilo]

An interesting idea is turning for 2 years in my mind:
- never to forget that PIECES OF KANVAS could be active parts of JB's wheel...
Let's see if you can think as me... what for?
regs. M.

[Michael]

Okay the diagrams are all sent off. This is what I am asking for verification for.

Generally, the pendula and their movements can be regarded as matching certain quotes of;
Sorry, paraphrased as I don't have the exact quote in front of me,
A quarter weight, moving a quarter, causes a full weight to fly upwards.

This is way way more information than what I wanted to say at the moment but it has to be said or some things won't make sense. The movements described of the pendula don't drive the wheel, they reset the pendula.

"There are worlds of interesting things to be had and witnessed when you change the center of rotation, or axel placement of mass in motion." 1998

Michael

[Michael]

It's been mentioned by Wolffe that he saw into the wheel, and described weights on arms and them hitting curved boards.

Incorrect - Wolff never saw weights on arms...

"...I conclude, not only from this but also from other circumstantial evidence, that the weights are attached to some moveable or elastic arms on the periphery of the wheel. During rotation, one can clearly hear the weights hitting against the wooden boards. I was able to observe these through a slit. They are slightly warped... Christian Wolff, letter to Leibniz, examination of Merseburg wheel, 19th December, 1715."

The above quote is at http://www.orffyre.com/quotes.html from John Collins book "Perpetual Motion - An Ancient Mystery Solved?"

Regardless I think you can understand the basic premise of my question. Did Wolffe see into the wheel or not, or was this reference "...but also from other circumstantial evidence" also the real basis of his statement about the curved boards?

[ovyyus]

I think Wolff's statement is clear: he speculated about how and where the weights were attached within the wheel. He observed slightly warped boards through a slit in the wheel.

[Michael]

Is it?

>I think Wolff's statement is clear: he speculated about how and where the weights were attached within the wheel. He observed slightly warped boards through a slit in the wheel.

I've brought this point up before when I was making an issue of how a wheel could be faked and the argument at that time was there was no way anyone could see inside the wheel.

I personally don't think there were any warped boards, but they could have a function I don't see yet.

Michael

[ovyyus]

Wolff's statement is what it is - he says he observed slightly warped wooden boards (which the weights hit against) through a slit in the wheel. I have no reason to think that he lied or that he made it up.

[amateur]

In the case of MT16, the warped (curved) boards would appear to be using gravity to move the "inner" weights closer to the center on the left sider, (thus reducing the mechanical advantage of those weights on that side.) Hard to tell from the picture, but it could also be that they support those "inner" weights (thus producing reduced force on their support attachments) so that they're not pulling on the outer levers for some portion of the ride, thus making it "easier" to return those levers to their fully extended position as the wheel rotates clockwise.

[Michael]

Hi Amateur,

Actually you helped me look at something I was trying to figure out. There is an interconnect mechanism that I could use, that Bessler has also drawn and placed somewhere, but I think he only did that out of generosity because although it would work well enough, it couldn't be what he actually used for various reasons. This may all sound contradictory but it is not. This helps towards the exact mechanism I was trying to figure out, I have to give it some more thought.

>thus producing reduced force on their support attachments) so that they're not pulling on the outer levers for some portion of the ride, thus making it "easier" to return those levers to their fully extended position as the wheel rotates clockwise.

Thanks,

Michael

[Nenamas]

All the MTs seem to complex to me I belive its simpler than that. He probly was thinking that it had to be complex but later figured out that it was simpler and never did any drawings that could lead people in the right direction. I am working on a design that the weights act in pairs, simple parts so they would be easy to replace even back in that time (not sure if you could fix them while the wheel is moving but with a little work to the design I belive it could be done and the wheel would keep working but not at the same rate as it would fully functional but would keep going till the other parts could be replaced), and it uses alot of other clues that I have read about but there is nothing on the outside of the wheel that effects the wheel itself you could but stuff on the outside and make it move but it wouldnt have any effect on the wheel or atleast it shouldnt. Im hoping to test it out very soon im still working on a few parts though. I cant seem to figure out if i want to make some parts curved or straight. They would probly have the same effect but the straight parts would be alot easyer to make. My design is fairly simple and I hope it atleast gets me started on the right path.

Is anyone else working on a design of a simple wheel that just uses the stuff on the inside of the wheel to move?

[rlortie]

Is anyone else working on a design of a simple wheel that just uses the stuff on the inside of the wheel to move?

Yes, I have two partially completed, one is 4' and the other is 3' in diameter. They are both are self contained but one may be improved by adding outside pendulums connected to a shaft within a cut away hollow axle.

Ralph

[Jonathan]

Replying to the same thing as Ralph, I think that is what just about everyone is working on. I made a combination model of MT9 and MT25 today, and of course it didn't work.
I think the concensus on fixing things while it works is that it may be an allusion to an interchangable parts concept, that a replacement piece (even poorly made) can be put inside so the wheel can work while the proper piece is fixed.

[Stewart]

Hi Nenamas

I wouldn't worry about trying to repair it while it is still moving. Bessler doesn't actually say that his wheels could be repaired while moving, but that by keeping parts in stock you can get it running again very quickly and then spend time repairing the removed part to go back in stock. He says this:

But if the part is already in stock, I have designed the machine beautifully, so it can always operate if one were to repair the same part.

Regards,
Stewart

[Jonathan]

I'm posting to verify that the pendula movements Michael descibes in post #9580 is correct for the mechanism he's showed me, though at this time he hasn't let me in on how this would lead to perpetual motion (and it isn't obvious to me).

[Fletcher]

I PMed Michael with my conclusions about his double pendulum arrangement & he has asked me to post my message to the forum, so here it is ...

<<Hi Michael,

Sorry for the long time in replying. Other pressing matters.

I have not been able to fully simulate the double pendulum design satisfactorily. Catches are the issue which are required for the correct timing of events, nevertheless I can see that the primary pendulum would behave as you have said & be able to cross TDC (12 o'cl). It appears to me that the primary gets its extra energy from the bearing set which initially is horizontal & facing east but ends up lower (vertical) & facing south. The resultant drop in height of the bearing set is a loss of potential which is transfered to the primary. The primary itself, although vertical again, is then at a lower height than it started at. No net change in energy that I can see. I can't see how it can regauge itself without additional energy input at a later stage. Remaining in that configuration without regauging would cause keeling. JMHO.

I have no idea how this would control "speed" of events as you say is necessary for your design or how this would play a part in your overall design. Obviously this "arrangement" helps "reorganise" internal parts through interconnectedness to give a Constantly Out Of Balance wheel in order for the design to work.

Good luck !

-fletch >>

[FunWithGravity2]

Michael
What did the other three have to say?