Water Power

[jim_mich]

15 foot = 15 × 12 = 180 inches.
Less 1 inch below water = 179 inches above water.

Area of 4 inch I.D.: pi × (4÷2)^2 = 12.56637 sq.in.
Water volume: 12.56637 × 179 = 2249.38 cu.in. water.
Water volume: 2249.38 ÷ (12^3) = 1.301725 cu.ft. water.

Weight of water: 1.301725 × 62.3 = 81.0975 lbs.
Then also add the weight of the pipe itself, maybe 5 pounds, for a total weight of 86 pounds.

To raise the water filled pipe to this height you need to apply a lifting force, which starts at near zero lbs when the pipe is fully under water and progresses to 86 pounds as the pipe reaches full extension up out of the water.

Now insert a hollow tube, say 3 inch diameter by 14 feet.

It will displace about 43 pounds of water. So you need to push the hollow tube downward with a force that starts at zero pounds and progresses up to about 43 pounds.

Now when you release the hollow tube, it floats up into the pipe and displaces water, which gravity will cause to flow down out of the pipe, thus wasting potential energy.

But now your pipe with its floating hollow tube no longer weighs 86 pounds.

Now how much does the suspended tube above the water weigh? The same as if it were completely filled with water.

The suspended pipe with the hollow tube inside weighs about: 86 - 43 = 43 lbs.
Which depends upon the actual size and weight of the float inside the pipe.

There is no way to harness perpetual energy from water and floats. People have been trying for hundreds of years. If there were a method, then it would have been discovered by now. The primary reason goes back to gravity being conservative. It takes the same energy to lift water as the water gives back when it falls. Water inside tubes, etc. just makes the mechanism harder to understand.

[Jon J Hutton]

ok, Jim,

Yes, I agree with everything that you said the math proves it out. BUT, the part I do not agree with you, only because I have done the experiments is that if you allow a ball or cyl or bellow to float up inside the tube filled with water (I tried it with ping pong balls floating into a small juice bottle) the weight of the cyl does not loose the same amount of weight that the ball displaced when it floated into the cyl. See my drawing attached. If it did they you could counter balance the float and with a little energy you could move alot of weight. The picture has some things wrong with it but the concept shows you what I a refering to. In fact in several experiments that I did the scale did not move at all. I tried it with many different types of containers.

So this will lead to only 2 very interesting outcomes 1. it works and I was wrong and we have discovered pm. 2. It does not work and we will discover a very perplexing undiscovered reason why.

Jon

[jim_mich]

if you allow a ball or cyl or bellow to float up inside the tube filled with water (I tried it with ping pong balls floating into a small juice bottle) the weight of the cyl does not loose the same amount of weight that the ball displaced when it floated into the cyl.

I need you to to explain in a little more detail your ping pong ball - juice bottle experiment. I suspect that I know what is happening, but I need you to make clear how you performed the experiment. How did you determine the weights, etc.?

Jim

[Jon J Hutton]

Sure Jim,

I had a 55 gallon drum and a fruit scale. I tried this with various kinds of containers, using anything from small plastic fruit juice containers to large 6 inch capped pipe that was 3 feet long. For floats to displace the water inside the containers I would use anything from large jars, balloons and swimming pool sponge floats the kind that children play with. I would first sink the float I would use to displace the water inside the tube that was attached to a pulley and a rope by some metal weights so that it could be allowed to go up into the cyl easily. I used a pulley with an eye like some people use for a dog trolley. I would attach a harness to the tube full of water wrap it around the container and then submerge it and lift it over the 55 gallon drum and attach it to one of many scales I used. I would usually siphon the water out of the drum down to a fraction of an inch from breaking siphon of the container and let the water settle. I would note the weight of the water filled suspended tube. Untie the float and carefully allow it to go inside the filled tube making sure it did not touch the sides or the top. I noted in each instance that the weight of the tube filled with water did not change when the float, weather it was a ping pong ball or balloon or what ever was allowed to go up inside the tube filled with water.

If it would of deflected the least I knew I could make pm from it because all one would need to do is counter ballance the float with a weight that would allow you to use one ounce to move the bellow or ballon up into the tube. Then the tube would displace a large amount of water/weight. But, nothing I tried changed the weight of the water tube suspended over the 55 gallon drum.

Jon

[Jon J Hutton]

Jim,

This is the only thing you wrote that was incorrect. if what you wrote were true, THERE WOULD BE PM.

But now your pipe with its floating hollow tube no onger weighs 86 pounds.

[jim_mich]

It took me a little thinking to get my mind wrapped around what was happening. It's a hydraulic pressure type of situation. I'll need to make a drawing to explain it in a way that makes sense to everyone.

[Jon J Hutton]

Jim, Do you see a way around it.

I tried varying the distance between the wall of the cylinder and the float, changing the shape of the float to a wedge that would allow the water to flow over the float easier, and nothing worked.

The only experiment along these lines that I did that worked was inserted a hose with a balloon on the end of it and blew it up inside a 5 gal water jug (the kind that fit on top of a purified water dispenser). Because of the negitive atmosphere pressure inside the jug the balloon inflated almost by itself, when it did the scale attached to the jug became lighter proportionally from the weight of the water displaced....the ballon never touched the top of the jug. So why would there be a difference between the two experiments.....?

Jon H.

[jim_mich]

• The black 14.7 PSI numbers are the atmospheric pressure.
• The negative blue PSI numbers are the vacuum caused by the weight of the water column.
• The red PSI numbers are the resulting pressures.

The green float effects nothing when the pipe is acting as a hydraulic system.
If the green float touches the pipes then it will effect things.
If the vacuum seal at the bottom is broken, then the pipe will act like a mechanical system.

We have all experienced suction cups, where the force is big until the suction is released. The pipe acts like a giant suction cup. The force is constant right up until the seal is broken. The float inside does not effect the suction.

The force needed to hold the pipe above the water includes the hydraulic forces plus the weight of the pipe. If the float touches the wall, then it changes the PSI pressure and will cause the pipe to seem lighter if the float is lighter than water or it will cause the pipe to seem heavier if the float is heavier than water. But when the float is floating and not touching, then it has no effect.

Am I making any sense??

[Jon J Hutton]

Jim,

Yes, that is straight forward enough....simple, but. Please explain then why when you blow a balloon up inside the cyl. the container looses weight even though the balloon does not touch the top or sides. But, when you put a float up through the neck then it does not. I am considering doing the experiment with 30 ping pong balls and having them caught in a net inside the container and have the net attached to the bottom of the barrel. I am wondering if in an unknown way it has to do with the size of the opening of the mouth of the container above the water. Because the 5 gal purified water container has a very small opening compared to the rest of the jug. Perhaps you could explain further. By all means please, someone consider repeating my experiments.

Jon