Another idea to add to the mix

Fletcher · Post by **Fletcher** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:13 am

Damian .. I've adjusted your model - click on the pin joint for the 2 kg weight & see that I've added a time constraint so that it lets go - I've also adjusted the k value of the spring for the lever [see properties]. - the rpm of the 50 kg wheel reaches over 7 rpm, drops down to 1 & then settles about 3 rpm after release of the 2 kg weight - have a play with different values & time.

Note that springs store Ke as Pe & give it back as Ke [this spring is a perfect spring - really you should use the dampened spring element for more realism [has some losses] - pequiade doesn't recommend using springs & you'd have to read his reply's to greendoors query about using them in this thread to hear his reasons.

DrWhat · Post by **DrWhat** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:19 am

Nice one Fletcher. Good to test a design and see the outcome.

I accept pequiade's non acceptance of springs. Worth a try though!

Fletcher · Post by **Fletcher** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:24 am

rlortie wrote:I am not totally involved in this thread, so lets just say I am keeping an open mind.

I do not know if it would work without knowing the linear distance of travel, but one answer to creating a variable speed leads me back to the rack and pinon. A simple spur gear which is also considered a lever of the third kind.

Could an eccentric spur gear on a free wheel bushing be utilized to start at a low ratio and then increase as a [variable transmission for reasons to do (deal) with inertia as motion is applied?] It would freewheel back to its low ratio starting point during the return trip of the rack. The gear is fixed to the flywheel axle and the rack compensates for variable tooth dedendum

Could this method be applied in WM2D?

Ralph

You could tutor greendoor in paint Ralph ;7) - is this variable transmission ctv joint for bicycles anything like what you were thinking about ? - if not have a search thru u-tube - there are some excellent variable transmission ideas there, if you are interested.

Since I can't picture what you are talking about I can't say whether it can be modeled in WM2D but its probably beyond me anyway - some like greg, lust or broli could possibly do it ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xV85JMz ... AB&index=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhFK5gfA ... AB&index=2

DrWhat · Post by **DrWhat** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:36 am

Just a note about previous posts: a see saw to me is pointless as it needs to be reset.

A disk/wheel device never needs resetting. Just get the smaller weight to the top!

Fletcher · Post by **Fletcher** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:19 am

Yes, that's a point that has been made - as long as there are multiple cup holders - the main thing is that all or most of the momentum must be transferred & that means stopping or almost stopping the slow large mass wheel & transferring that momentum into a fast low mass wheel that can then lift the weight back up.

That means that the slow large mass wheel must slow & stop [loosing it's inertia] & at the same time the stationary light mass wheel must speed up [gain inertia] to 'soak up' the momentum, with minimal losses - so there must be a variable transmission of forces from one to the other - it has to be variable because the inertia's change as do the speeds as the transfer occurs [ratio's change].

If you look at the U-tube variable transmissions [there are many types] you will see that a force is still required to be applied over a distance to physically change ratio's - the one titled 'CTV's explained' is close to a fuse type arrangement - the advantage of a groove wheel fuse is that the rope will follow the grooves in a predetermined way - it is beyond me however how to transfer the momentum via this method without additional energy input - I'm sure there are many members who are more mechanically apt than me & perhaps they will have a clever & simple solution ?

For the record - I don't believe the reset can be done mechanically without additional energy being introduced but I've borrowed a hat ready for eating ;7)

nicbordeaux · Post by **nicbordeaux** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:01 pm

DrWhat wrote:Just a note about previous posts: a see saw to me is pointless as it needs to be reset.

A disk/wheel device never needs resetting. Just get the smaller weight to the top!

How on earth can a lever/seesaw be pointless ? If you can get it to reset itself (or rather some "device" which resets it), it wilt start again, and again, and again.... Say ten kgs falling thru 65 degrees of arc on 1 meter from fulcrum side of beam or lever, time from release to reset/restart 3 seconds. That's getting to be very useful power.

A wheel is going to use up all the momentum gained during "fall" 180 to get thru the "climb" 180 Â° if you use some system. Maybe you even get 10%+ free. But the energy is absolutely insignificant. It is a toy.

A "resetting" lever running on a single power delivery stroke, with a upstroke having no power removed from it is infinitely more efficient than any self running wheel is going to be.

path_finder · Post by **path_finder** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:56 pm

Sometime the answer could come from where you should not think about.
I'm surprised that Jacob Alex forgot to post here one of his numerous drawings, at this time in relation with this thread:
http://www.geocities.com/iacob_alex/Inertial_Drive.html
Hoping he will comment himself his experiments.

pequaide · Post by **pequaide** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:20 pm

No winches, no springs, no transmissions, no lifting, you are making this harder than it is.

A spinning disk floating on a frictionless plane can give all of its momentum to pucks that unwrap from its circumference. I do this experiment and the energy increase is large.

Couldn't the pucks be caught from above as in a pendulum and they would naturally rise, and the energy would be stored.

I missed to concept being used to stop boats and trains could someone direct me to that site.

broli · Post by **broli** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:51 pm

Peq I'm working on designing a new concept which should make bigger and controlled experiments a lot easier. I'm going for simple construction materials and mechanisms. Yesterday I discovered the wonders of constant force springs (see vulcan conforce/conpower). These would be very great for starting rotation and storing the energy after the momentum transfer without having to fling anything in the sky. Even a tape measure can be used as it contains a constant force spring.

Edit: You can find me on skype if you want to discuss specific specs.

pequaide · Post by **pequaide** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:42 pm

No springs.

The floating disk can be replaced with a one ton horizontal wheel on bearings. The wheel can be spun by a string with a suspended mass draped over a pulley. Once spinning the wheel can fling a cart far higher than the same mass was dropped. All you need is a ramp or a pendulum to allow the cart to rise.

broli · Post by **broli** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:48 pm

Peq there's no reason why you should fling a mass in the air unless you don't believe in 1+1=2. I'm sure John Doe will be impressed by that but anyone who knows anything about physics knows that speed is enough. The setup I'm modeling is quite rigid, after the whole thing is started by a known torque you measure the final rotational speed, using that and the moment of inertia you can find out energy, easy as pie.

rlortie · Post by **rlortie** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:58 pm

Fletcher wrote;

Since I can't picture what you are talking about I can't say whether it can be modeled in WM2D but its probably beyond me anyway - some like greg, lust or broli could possibly do it ?

Think "Snail Cam" with teeth. There are a number of videos on Utube of elliptical gearing, They are positive from the start and do not loose anything other than the required working clearance of the pitch.

Ralph

PS; This will be my last post unless a response is directed to my attention.

Fletcher · Post by **Fletcher** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:41 pm

Thanks ralph - pathfinder has put up a number of similar elliptical gears form U-tube during his posts.

Well, broli, greendoor & pequiade seem to be heading somewhere together - some are designing, some are drawing, they are agreeing on what can or can't be included, springs, gravity etc & what's optional.

The rest of us just want a device that resets with the input energy & conditions identified - if it is a horizontal wheel & doesn't need to fling any weights up then that's just dandy & if it's a vertical arrangement it does.

Hat's at the ready.

Nick .. an oscillating system is just fine - I'm pretty sure you say you have closed the loop otherwise you have the same problem - downstroke extracts power some of which has to be used to reset the balance beam either electrically, hydraulically, pneumatically or mechanically.

nicbordeaux · Post by **nicbordeaux** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:30 pm

I'm beginning to wonder what closing the loop actually means, I understood it as success in letting a device start, and having by no external drive, that means a combo of grav driven mechs, retun to start position, with all parts of mech(s) in position it started from. The difficulty if you do that is restarting the device, but I think we've vaguely discussed that p.m (no, not post mortem, private mail). The amount of energy left of that extracted by "fall", "G" or "downstroke" of beam weighted end and any added acceleration or push by parts of the device after ensuring return to start position is "usabale" or "available, or "residual".

I'd love to see somebody manage that with some sort of wheel, but don't see a load of excess or residual left to do any work.

But then I'm a beam fetishist I guess.

Gregory · Post by **Gregory** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:32 pm

Fletcher wrote:Since I can't picture what you are talking about I can't say whether it can be modeled in WM2D but its probably beyond me anyway - some like greg, lust or broli could possibly do it ?

Sorry guys, I don't have the time lately to help you out with the sim, I do not even progress with my own design and I am happy if I can read most of the post on the forum.

This thread is intersting...
I would need a mechanism too which can fully transfer momentum from one type of weight to a flywheel, so one day I have to design some bloody mechanism which is capable to do the trick. At the moment I haven't got it. An automatic gearbox or cvt is a bit complicated, we cannot just throw that inside a wheel. Something more simple mech or a different approach is required for this problem.

Otherwise, Am I got it right?
By transferring momentum from a heavy slow moving weight to a light standing weight, at the end of this process the (now) fast moving light weight will have more KE than the heavy weight had.
So, according to standard (accepted) physics there is really a gain? What is it mean anyway?

Keep up the good work!

P.S.: I hope Jim will solve all this stuff soon, so I do not need to sit back to the drawing board & try to save/destroy the world myslef, LOL :D

BesslerWheel.com

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