Forget it

[Oystein]

Nope, buying a very simple working PM principle for a large sum, that was what he would be remembered for.

I can`t find any reason for a successful prince to even hold the money if it was not what they claimed. Why would he risk anything?

If not true PM:
The money to Bessler for the peek, ok.
Room and display at the castle, maybe.
Rath position NO,
Being a part of any money transactions between Rulers NO NO.

[eccentrically1]

eccentrically1

the way i understand their deal, he agreed to sponsor bessler regardless of whether it was true pm or not.
he wanted to know how it worked, for the smaller fee to see it, in exchange for his silence.
once he knew, he didn't back out of his part of the deal, or buy it. he kept his word.

That is wrong, Karl bought the right to see inside and was to make an attestment if it was true PM in Karl’s opinion, which he did on his own accord. Rulers were much more feared then you are of your rulers today. Bessler was not setting the parameters after Karl seen inside. That said why did it take Karl so long to pay Bessler or did he do all his business like that with his subjects?
It was no a small fee, it was 1/10 of the asking price and Karl would have skinned him alive if he detected an all-out fraud.

That still doesn't explain why he didn't buy it. If he thought it was true pm, and attested to it, and if he thought it could be scaled up, why not buy it and the rights to it and its market?

He couldn't skin him alive unless he bought it, fraud or not. Because karl didn't buy it doesn't prove it was true pm. since he didn't buy it, and then skin him alive, it makes it more likely it was a fraud.

[daxwc]

eccentrically1:

That still doesn't explain why he didn't buy it. If he thought it was true pm, and if he thought it could be scaled up, why not buy it and the rights to it and its market?

Hesse-Kassel was deeply in debt after the 30 year war. I don't think Karl had as much money to maneuver as we think.

[Oystein]

IMO:
You are right to you own opinion. And those opinions are the main reason for the reconstruction to have taken so long. And since the reconstruction has taken such a long time, you use that as an argument too.

A vicious circle, Perpetual no-motion.

Perpetual skepticism leads nowhere. Healthy skepticism is needed so you can decide what to focus on. But regarding true PM: If any, the Bessler story is the ONLY well documented case in history to learn anything from. If you have decided it was not true, you are not able to learn anything from it, and have no other story to learn from either.

Then you better use your time on other subjects.

(no pun intended)

[eccentrically1]

Bessler's asking price was a relative pittance for Karl, so it wasn't the money.

or

I don't think Karl had as much money to maneuver as we think.

no money would explain why he didn't skin him alive, he didn't have it.
if he had the money, he would have bought it if it was true pm.
wouldn't anyone, for the impossible wheel?

[daxwc]

E1:

He couldn't skin him alive unless he bought it, fraud or not.

Why???? You get caught being a grifter and trying to deceive a ruler in 1700’s and see what that got you sale or no sale. Bessler had very limited rights when it came to the Landgrave; charlatans and swindlers were hung or tortured and even worse outcome if the crime would have been against Karl.

[eccentrically1]

You are right to you own opinion. And those opinions are the main reason for the reconstruction to have taken so long. And since the reconstruction has taken such a long time, you use that as an argument too.

the solution isn't a pm wheel. that's why the reconstruction isn't going to be a pm wheel. it doesn't have anything to do with opinion or skepticism.
the pm part of the story isn't true. there's nothing to learn in this story about pm wheels, except that you can't construct one.
it's a story of human intrigue and failings and feelings.
but i still look forward to your new geometry.

[eccentrically1]

E1:

He couldn't skin him alive unless he bought it, fraud or not.

Why???? You get caught being a grifter and trying to deceive a ruler in 1700’s and see what that got you sale or no sale. Bessler had very limited rights when it came to the Landgrave; charlatans and swindlers were hung or tortured and even worse outcome if the crime would have been against Karl.

so you think it was really a gravity wheel?

[daxwc]

What Karl thought it was and what it truly was could be different.

[eccentrically1]

that's what i've said before and the argument has always been karl wouldn't have been fooled.

[daxwc]

What people in England got in punishment for crimes.
http://www.exclassics.com/newgate/ngconti.htm
http://www.exclassics.com/newgate/ngintro.htm


Germany banned torture in the early 1800’s.
http://www.castlesandmanorhouses.com/me ... .htm#judas

[ovyyus]

Nope, buying a very simple working PM principle for a large sum, that was what he would be remembered for.

If the wheel was driven by energy somehow created from gravity and/or inertia - and nothing else - then Karl would have been fully aware of the incredible implications such a breakthrough would have. Whether such a wheel might be simple or complex is meaningless compared to the magnitude and scope of its implications for science and its impact on everyday life for everyone.

Karl would not want to be remembered as the man who allowed "true PM" to wither and die, no matter how simple the mechanism. Therefore, we seem to be missing an important aspect of the relationship between Bessler and Karl or we're missing some important aspect of Karl's understanding of the wheel.

[eccentrically1]

I don't think an aspect is missing in karl's understanding of the wheel.
Karl would have known what he was looking at, or bessler tricked him too.
The relationship is the question. I think karl let him off the hook.
But the torture stuff is interesting being this close to halloween.

[rlortie]

IMO: EDITED FOR BREVITY
You are right to you own opinion. And those opinions are the main reason for the reconstruction to have taken so long. And since the reconstruction has taken such a long time, you use that as an argument too.

Perpetual skepticism leads nowhere. Healthy skepticism is needed so you can decide what to focus on. But regarding true PM: If any, the Bessler story is the ONLY well documented case in history to learn anything from. If you have decided it was not true, you are not able to learn anything from it, and have no other story to learn from either.

I like your attitude, note, I clipped the "(no pun intended)"

I follow my own intuition spending more time in the shop than I do here in these unproductive debates. My crutch is not Bessler, but rather the eye witness testimonies. I found that more is to be gained by innovation through trial and error.

Physical "hands on building" is the route for me. And yes, I make mistakes, but they are more productive than arguing over words such inertia, momentum, kinetic and especially Cf.

And I certainly do not see any objective results debating Count Karl and his dealings with Bessler. I could care less as to whether it was considered a gravity machine or a PM machine, the witnesses said they saw it run.

I believe Nick started this thread with a different purpose (topic in mind) it did not take long to stray inundating title object.

Ralph

[preoccupied]

The biggest issue with revealing a perpetual motion machine is prosecution power granted in copyright. If indeed it was so simple of a design anybody could think nobody invented that it always existed or one person or the other could say they were the original and it would be believable. It's not worth releasing a perpetual motion machine design that is simple looking unless it has special protection or you would get no glory.