Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

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Fletcher
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Fletcher »

Shadow wrote:I have reread the thread since Fletcher’s first Sim, you want to highlight in a virtual way what Bessler could have achieved physically?
Yes, Shadow .. we have to walk-it-back to those WM sims ( it's not about sim programs, other than a tool we can use ) - we know that both programs are perfectly capable of showing ANY torque, with ANY mechanism - if torque is present either sim will quite adequately predict and show an imbalance and movement - and the "trends" are there even if both programs give a slightly different result for these "ideal" conditions ..

In this case both sim programs show the optimal conditions of zero frictions ( energy losses ), and that actual displacing physical mechanisms are not required for the regeneration of that torque - the sims accelerate and gain in Rotational Kinetic Energy and Angular Momentum - and regardless of the carcass mass used, or the individual weights masses they can be "tweaked" until they achieve 50 RPM in just 1 to 2 revolutions as B's. real one-way Draschwitz wheel did - the sims are indicative only ..

In these sims the weights are instantly "teleported" vertically ( no MA technique is used ) - it is an absolutely "free" lift ( gain in GPE ) i.e. there is NO COST / PENALTY to the wheel to achieve this lift ..

In B's. case he did have frictions and a physical mechanical displacement did occur - it took time for them to move into position to create the abundance of recurring torque, and continue to regenerate it to maintain the wheel at 50 RPM ..

That means that his overbalancing weights in his real-world build had to have a much greater weight mass than the sims are working with - because there were frictions to slow it down, and time was needed for any displacement lift and reset to occur - so these sims, showing constant overbalance so that a wheel could start in ANY position with instant torque like B's. wheel, grossly under-represent what the actual overbalance torque created was in a real-world one-way wheel achieving 50 PM in 1 to 2 turns ..

We don't need sims to tell us this, but we do need reminding of the extreme overbalance his wheels generated, and maintained - not a small amount that then can be tweaked for some improvement - a big, instantly available, in-your-face, new way of finding and maintaining regenerative overbalance ..

On that note - I made these sorts of sims years and years ago - to prove the things we are talking about - one of the reasons for me doing so was for a period of time 10 or 15 years ago I was seriously considering whether B. and Karl had been economical with the truth and an ambient environmental force had provided the energy for the required lift - I could successfully sim aerodynamic forces, hydrostatic forces, and adequately fake the effects of diurnal temperature and pressure changes etc ( like a Cox's clock for instance ) - what became patently obvious from the exercise was that there was no way that any of these diurnal environmental forces could generate enough rapid power to continually lift weights to achieve anything like the RPM and number of turns up to speed of B's. wheels, not a 100th of it - that was well and truly a rabbit-hole not to go further down ..

* What we can know is that there were not 8 weights ( or 5 ) of 4 lbs each for a one-way wheel - we are told there were enough removed at Merseburg to fill a box - a standard coke can of lead would make 2 weights - and the sims show how much/many, at an absolute minimum, weights would be required to achieve 50 RPM in just 1 or 2 turns ..

...............
Last edited by Fletcher on Mon Jul 22, 2024 10:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by johannesbender »

I imagine if more weights were fit in , doubled in amount for example , the less time there would be to climb for each weight because the lesser the angle between each weight , and the faster the com would jump up and down as the weights "teleport"
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

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jb" wrote:I imagine if more weights were fit in , doubled in amount for example , the less time there would be to climb for each weight because the lesser the angle between each weight , and the faster the com would jump up and down as the weights "teleport"

Yes jb, I have just used a convenient 8 spoke arrangement with an imaginary teleporting mech for each node .. the system CoM track is a " D " shape as it recirculates down and "zips" back up on the RHS of the axle - the flat side of the D is there ( i.e. not a complete " O " track ) because the mass is instantly teleported back up ( from 1 frame to the next ) and doesn't have to lift itself over time as a true mechanical arrangement would have to do, otherwise it would show a " O " track of descent and recovery ..

If we doubled the nodes to 22.5 degs apart instead of the current 45 degs so more weights could fit in then the System CoM track would be smaller and tighter, and faster IINM ..
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by johannesbender »

Fletcher wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 1:03 am
jb" wrote:I imagine if more weights were fit in , doubled in amount for example , the less time there would be to climb for each weight because the lesser the angle between each weight , and the faster the com would jump up and down as the weights "teleport"

Yes jb, I have just used a convenient 8 spoke arrangement with an imaginary teleporting mech for each node .. the system CoM track is a " D " shape as it recirculates down and "zips" back up on the RHS of the axle - the flat side of the D is there ( i.e. not a complete " O " track ) because the mass is instantly teleported back up ( from 1 frame to the next ) and doesn't have to lift itself over time as a true mechanical arrangement would have to do, otherwise it would show a " O " track of descent and recovery ..

If we doubled the nodes to 22.5 degs apart instead of the current 45 degs so more weights could fit in then the System CoM track would be smaller and tighter, and faster IINM ..
Yes i am fully aware and understand it is just an example , with magical energy that to be ignored for the sake of studying the result , and i understand this all still fully aligns with the facts we understand about physics , that should it break the law by lifting more with less - then it would be possible to rotate on its own - as paraphrased by Bessler with the 4:1 "riddle" , and i understand that the instant skipping of mass to its required locations without traveling along the path from its lowest to highest location would not show how an actual path would look like if it were to take time to travel along its path instead of skipping that distance.

Were you to add more weights while maintaining the target of around 50 rpm , that the time limit for each mass to get from the bottom to the top reduces if there were no instant skip/teleport.

If they were not to skip/teleport there would likely be two different scenarios followed (while still ignoring energy losses) .

A) having to start climbing earlier before 6'oclock to reach its height in time for when it reaches around 6 oclock .
B) producing more counter torque if it were to still not have reached its height when its around 6 oclock .

In case of scenario A , the path would still mostly remain to the right , however the total falling height and time a weight has on the right side along its path around the axle would become less .

In scenario B , the falling time weight spend on the right side giving torque along its path around the axle would be more than in A , but also more time would be spend on the left side while climbing that would cause less total torque to the right.


IINM (based on my mind sim).
Its all relative.
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Roxaway59 »

I've been reading up on script for Algodoo. So far I've been able to do basic things like turning the motor off automatically but I will keep at it to see if I can recreate what Fletcher has done.

At the moment I am concentrating on two main things related to what has been recently posted on.

One is wheel ideas that have the potential to have the weights move far out and the other is mechanisms that create positive feedback when the wheel is turned.

Graham
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Robinhood46 »

Roxaway,
I have managed to open an account and even share a scene.
What i haven't managed to do, is find out how to share a link so that someone else can find it. Like you and Shadow do with your scenes.
I can't find a tutorial on Youtube that shows how to do it, and i haven't been able to find a way of doing it, in all the dossiers i have looked.
Can you explain what i need to do, so that i can give you the scene?
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Robinhood46 »

I have found it
I think this is the correct link, but there is a warning not to download. Is it because there are modifications in the script menu? It certainly sounds plausible, because i cannot post the command on Youtube either, for people to just copy and paste (CTRL/C for copy and CTRL/V for paste).

I have downloaded it, and it works absolutely fine, exactly the same as the original on my computer.
When i close Algodoo and go through my downloads, it works fine too.
I really don't think there is any reason to be concerned about the warning, but i don't know anywhere near enough about computers to be 100% sure.
I can certainly understand anyone who doesn't want to take the risk, and i would not in any way take it personally.
If anyone is confident enough, please let us know how things go.


http://www.algodoo.com/algobox/download.php?id=270962
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Roxaway59 »

Robinhood this is what I do.

Open Algodoo.
Go to file, load scene, then make sure you know the scene name of the one you are posting.
Load the scene and take a screen shot by holding the windows button then press PrtScn on keyboard and the screen should flash.
Go to your files on your PC click Documents, Algodoo, and then scenes. You should now see your scenes.
Go to the scene you want and right click it. You should see Send to, now click on that and you should see an option to put it in a compressed zip folder.
Click on that and a folder should appear next to your scene in the scene list with the same name.
Go to post on the forum and to post your file go to Attachments, Add files, Then go to Pictures on your PC and there should be a file for Screenshots.
Look in there and find your picture and upload it.
Go to add another file then this time go to Documents, Algodoo then scenes and find your zipped folder and upload that.
If your PC is similar to mine it should be straight forward.

Graham
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Robinhood46 »

Roxaway59 wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 10:40 pm If your PC is similar to mine it should be straight forward.
Mine is probably similar to yours, with one slight difference, it talks French.
I got half way through it all, and things were looking pretty good.
I didn't get the option to compress, or i did, but didn't know what it was, or i wasn't in the right place.
Hang on, i might have done it.
I've never been one for believing in miracles, i might have to change my opinion on Devine interventions if this actually works.
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Roxaway59 »

So far so good Robinhood, I noticed the extra script you put in I don't know enough yet to work out what you have done.

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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Robinhood46 »

I am pleased that I'm finally able to share my scenes. Thanks for explaining how.
I left the other wheel, to the left of the demonstration for Fletcher, because it has the original command for modifying collision layers.
My son did this, using Anydesk, working on my computer from somewhere else in the universe. Which explains why it worked so well, not because he is an alien from some distant solar system, because he is a computer programmer. For him it is about as complicated as changing the spark plug on a lawnmower, and just as with changing the spark plug, the most difficult part is getting him motivated to do it.

If you pay attention to the original command, changing collision layer and colour, and compare it to changing density and colour, you should be able to get the hang of how it is calculating everything, and what you can do with it.

Now that you have the original command, it might be possible to simply copy and paste the bits that need changing, which will overcome the problem of servers not allowing commands. They will be incomplete, and not considered commands, hopefully.

I hope you managed to understand the need to find the position 000-000, to place the centre of the wheel, which is the start of the video i shared a while back showing changes in script.
For the demonstration for Fletcher, only one axis is on the 000 line, so i needed to copy the position of the centre of the wheel and use that reference in the command for the magic to happen. In the video with multiple wheels, i couldn't fit them on the screen with them one on top of each other, so as to use the same horizontal reference point, to change all the weights density with the exact same command. I needed to copy the position of each wheel and paste it each time in the command to tell it where to do the magic.

Don't hesitate to ask, if you need a detail or want me to modify a command for you, i can modify it in your scene and post it back to you. At least i hope i can, there may be problems because the scene may be seen as copying yours. So might need to make my own scene with just the object with the modified command. We'll worry about that if it happens.
Have fun playing with it.
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Fletcher »

johannesbender wrote:
... that should it break the law by lifting more with less - then it would be possible to rotate on its own ...

Were you to add more weights while maintaining the target of around 50 rpm , that the time limit for each mass to get from the bottom to the top reduces if there were no instant skip/teleport.

If they were not to skip/teleport there would likely be two different scenarios followed (while still ignoring energy losses) .

A) having to start climbing earlier before 6'oclock to reach its height in time for when it reaches around 6 oclock .

B) producing more counter torque if it were to still not have reached its height when its around 6 oclock .

In case of scenario A , the path would still mostly remain to the right , however the total falling height and time a weight has on the right side along its path around the axle would become less .

In scenario B , the falling time weight spend on the right side giving torque along its path around the axle would be more than in A , but also more time would be spend on the left side while climbing that would cause less total torque to the right.


IINM (based on my mind sim).
I think your mind sim is working just fine jb ..
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Fletcher »

Roxaway59 wrote:
... but I will keep at it to see if I can recreate what Fletcher has done.

At the moment I am concentrating on two main things related to what has been recently posted on.

One is wheel ideas that have the potential to have the weights move far out and the other is mechanisms that create positive feedback when the wheel is turned.
That's good - keeping the objectives in sight .. looking forward to seeing how your Algodoo sims work out Graham - and a thanks to RH46 and his son for making it possible in Algodoo ( tho I have no clue where or how he changed it lol ) - as you know I didn't need to use any script feature in WM to create the "teleporting" function - just write an IF statement into the > Properties > mass field for each mass effected - and not make it exactly zero so the program didn't spit the dummy ..
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by johannesbender »

Reminded of the TP cycle , CW as your sims , left up fast , goes right , falls down , goes left .... etc.
Its all relative.
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