Apologia Poetica Translation

[Jonathan]

I too was wondering about this. I've seen people in China use two sticks connected by a short rope at one end each to whack a pile of plants to separate the grain and chaff (they pick up the chaff and then sweep up the grain). I went to DC (I think Mt. Vernon specifically) and there was what looked like an oversized gazebo designed to have horses walk in circles to trod the grain from the chaff, and the grain would fall through slits in the floor. But I've not seen it done like that. However, I interpreted what I was seeing differently than Michael, I saw the two semi-vertical bundles of stalk just sitting in the background, while the thresher pounds on a single bundle in the foreground.

[MC]

Cymbal is primarily the name of a shape. Our ordinary day-to-day dinner-plates has this shape in order to facilitate their stacking/stockpiling. So ‘without cymbal-weights’ merely means ‘without stacked/stockpiled weights’.

MC

[MC]

I believe (i.e. I have fair reason to suspect) that cymbal has lost its original meaning trough time (during the ages). Today we almost only recognize it as a musical instrument. But cymbal is originally a (kind of) shape, or more specifically any shape with the ability of fitting itself into its own replica (copy). The traditional musical cymbala has such a shape, thus (therefore) its name. Such a shape is the optimal one for stacking or stockpiling (since it fits into itself). So when Bessler says ‘without cymbal-weight’ he means (implies) ‘without any weight that originates from a stockpile (of them)’. I have read somewhere (if my memory serves me right) that he was accused of having such a stockpile of weights in the upper portion of his wheel. These were collected in its lower portion. Letting go of them, one after another, would keep the wheel going (turning, running) for quite a while (i.e. as long time as the size of the stockpile). This scheme indeed requires weights optimized for stockpiling. This insight of what ‘cymbal-weight’ means came to me in a flash (in an instance). The explanation of why it did so is a little more difficult to explain). If anyone requests it, I will consider an effort to do so.

Please commentÂ…

MC

[ovyyus]

Hi MC, this sounds interesting. Can you provide any links or other info sources on this?

[John Collins]

The word used for cymbal in Apologia is "zimbel" and "zimbel-gewicht". "Gewicht" is "weight". Although you're on an interesting line of thought MC, don't forget that Bessler was an organ builder and zimbel can also refer to an organ-stop. Organ building was flourishing in JB's time and it may be that a cymbal-weight has a different meaning entirely. I have considered that it could refer to some "weight" connected with the operation of the organ-stop?

John C.

[Stewart]

Hi MC

Bessler mentions Zimbel (Cymbal) three times in Apologia Poetica as follows:

Part I - Page 89:

Laufft ohne in und außre Räder/
Zimbel-Gewicht/Wind und Uhr-Feder/x.

It runs without wheels inside or outside,
Cymbal-Weights, wind and Clock-Springs,x.

Part II - Page 26:

Du soltest in die Schule gehen/
Und vieles lernen noch verstehen/
Und was man eine Zimbel heiss't; NB.
Dieweil du dieses noch nicht weist.

You [Wagner] should go to school,
and study much still to understand,
and what one calls a Cymbal; NB.
Because you don't know this yet.

Part II - Page 85:

In meinem Wercke findt man nicht
Uhr-Federn und Zimbel-Gewicht. NB.

In my work one does not find
Clock-Springs and Cymbal-Weights. NB.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bessler also mentions the word Cimbeln once as follows:

Part II - Page 90

Nebst frembden Cimbeln fügen an;

I'm not sure how to translate it...
Nebst = "together with".
frembden could be two separate words - fremb den. Fremb/Fremd could mean strange or alien, and fremden could mean strangers.
Cimbeln - is this just another spelling of Zimbel or does it have another meaning altogether?
fügen = "to connect" or "to join"
an = "at" or "by".

Any suggestions?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would appear that in Das Triumphans, Bessler has stopped referring to Zimbel-Gewicht (although I haven't read through all the German text to say for sure) but says:

... als Uhr-wercken/ Federn und angehängte oder aufzuzichende Gewichte ...

... as Clock-Work, springs and weights to be suspended or drawn up/raised ...


In conclusion I think that when Bessler says Zimbel he is talking about the musical Cymbal which at the time was a small bell. I think that Zimbel-Gewicht or Cymbal-Weight means a suspended weight used to power an automated Cymbala (see attachement). This seems to be backed up by the fact that when talking about what is not powering his wheel, Bessler talks of Cymbal-Weights in AP and suspended/raised weights in DT. However, I like your idea of slow-release stacked weights, but I'm not sure this was a conventional way of powering automata at the time. Please feel free to elaborate on this idea though and I'd be interested in any examples you might have.

All the best
Stewart

A few links:
http://www.beiaard.org/enggeschiedenis.html

http://www.organstops.org/c/Cymbal.html

[MC]

Some months ago, I saw the interpretation “hoisting weight” in the first page of this thread. Since I am not native to English I only recognized this as a “hanging weight”. Now I have looked it up and it seems to mean a hanging (bulky) weight that is either falling or rising. (Members native to English must keep in mind that the rest of the World does not always have a corresponding concept in their own language.)

Letting one huge weight drop slowly or letting many small weights drop, one after another, are two different reincarnations (variations) of the same fraudulent scheme. In Besslers time (era) there must have been a lot of other automata, besides carillons that where powered by hoisting weights, so why choosing the particular word “cymbal-weight” unless he intended to encompass both these fraudulent schemes in one single word.

Since I am certain that “cymbal” is intertwined with stacking, I think that we (through productive collaboration) have exposed (yet another example of) the versatility in his words, which I think is carefully chosen and intended.

I may be wrong but my nose insists persistently in telling me that I am right.

(Thanks for the responses and especially your elaborate one, Stewart).

MC – At Your Service

(I am deeply concerned about the “Clarkie-case”. New members are added on a daily basis. There should really be some kind of warning on the front page of this site!)

[Fletcher]

Filling in the "Location" Field in your "Member Profile" will help alert others here if extra care is needed with wording for non English first language speakers. jmo.

[Stewart]

In some recent posts in other topics there has been mention of the possible use of heat, or a temperature difference to power the wheel. However, consider the 11th question of chapter XLVII in Apologia Poetica (page 93-94):

This is my translation attempt:

The eleventh question I get stopped to tell is: "Does my machine also perform in the cold (when other machines are frozen)?" The answer lies behind the following: With my machine one can stay working pleasantly in Winter, as it whizzes and bangs. When other machines are nearly snowed up, mine runs along as new. If a hard frost creeps in there, it is Summer here, the weather shines.

Would a heat engine still be able to work in freezing conditions? - I wouldn't have thought so. Surely any machine that works on a temperature difference or even compressed air would be affected by extreme changes in atmospheric temperature, but from Bessler's description it sounds like his wheel is not affected at all by such changes.

Stewart

P.S. - Here is how I came up with this translation, if you'd like to check it:

Zum Eilfften werd' ich angehalten
Zu sagen; Ob denn auch im Kalten
(Wenn andre Wercke zugefrier'n)
Ist meine Sache außzuführ'n? x.
Alhier steckt die Antwort dahinter:
Mit meiner Kunst kan man im Winter
Bey angenehmen Auffenthalt
Arbeiten/ daß es sauss't und knall't;
Wenn andre Künste fast verschneyen/
So laufft die meine fort vom neuen;
Wenn dort der harte Frost einschleich't/
Ists Sommer hier/ das Wetter leucht't.
----------------------------------------
Zum Elften werde ich angehalten
Zu sagen; Ob denn auch im Kalten
(Wenn andre Werke zugefroren)
Ist meine Sache auszuführen? x.
Hier steckt die Antwort dahinter:
Mit meiner Kunst kann man im Winter
Bei angenehmen Aufenthalt
Arbeiten, daß es saust und knallt;
Wenn andre Künste fast verschneien,
So läuft die meine fort vom neuen;
Wenn dort der harte Frost einschleichet,
Ist es Sommer hier, das Wetter leuchtet.
-----------------------------------------
To the eleventh I get stopped
To tell; if for also in cold
(when other works are frozen),
Is my thing performing?
Here the answer lies behind:
With my art one can in Winter
Be pleasantly stay
Working, that it [rushes/whizzes] and [bangs/slams];
When other arts are nearly snowed up,
So runs mine along as new;
If there the hard frost creeps in,
It is Summer here, the weather shines.

[Stewart]

Here is my translation attempt of question 10 in chapter XLVII of Apologia Poetica (page 93):

Of the tenth question I should show: "In the event that the machine needs to be repaired, would it need lots of time, loss, effort, money and expensive things?" x. Answer: If the machine were made well, the main parts will remain all right for many years. However, if indeed something needs altering, it will cost little money, time, effort, risk, and one can easily make most parts in an hour. But if the part is already in stock, I have designed the machine beautifully, so it can always operate if one were to repair the same part. Indeed all machines actually require a mechanic.

Michael - this means you are right when you interpreted the translation from John's book as meaning the wheel is stopped and a part is replaced with one from stock and then the wheel is restarted. The part can then be repaired. This of course makes perfect sense, but is now backed-up by Bessler's words: "im Vorrat schon" = "in stock already".

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=604

Stewart

P.S. - Here's how I got my translation:

Zum Zehnten sol ich remonstriren/
Im Fall die Kunst zu repariren/
Ob auch dazu gehört viel Zeit/
Verlust/ Müh'/ Geld und Kostbarkeit? x.
Antwort: Wens Werck gemacht fein tüchtig/
Bleibt das Haupt-Ding viel Jahre richtig/
Jedoch/ wenn ja was wandelbar/
Kostt's wenig Geld/ Zeit/ Müh'/ Gefahr/
Und wird man meistentheils die Sachen
In einer Stunde spielend machen;
Noch über diß im Vorraht schon
Hab' ich die schön' Invention/
Die Kunst kan immer operiren/
Wenn man sie gleich wird repariren;
Zwar jede Kunst wird eigentlich
Einen Kunst-Wärter wünschen sich.
-----------------------------------------
Zum Zehnten soll ich remonstriren,
Im Fall die Kunst zu repariren,
Ob auch dazu gehört viel Zeit,
Verlust, Mühe, Geld und Kostbarkeit? x.
Antwort: Wenn es Werk gemacht fein tüchtig,
Bleibt das Haupt-Ding viel Jahre richtig,
Jedoch, wenn ja was wandelbar,
Kostes wenig Geld, Zeit, Mühe, Gefahr,
Und wird man meistenteils die Sachen
In einer Stunde spielend machen;
Noch über dies im Vorrat schon
Habe ich die schöne Invention,
Die Kunst kann immer operiren,
Wenn man sie gleich wird repariren;
Zwar jede Kunst wird eigentlich
Einen Kunst-Wärter wünschen sich.
-----------------------------------------
To the tenth I should again show,
In the event the art for to repair,
If also that needs lots of time,
[Loss/sacrifice/waste], effort, money and [costliness/preciousness/treasure]? x.
Answer: If it work made fine proficient,
Remains the main-thing many years all right,
However, if indeed something alterable,
Costs little money, time, effort, risk,
And will one for the most part the things
In an hour easily make;
Yet of this in stock already
Have I the beautiful invention,
The art can always operate,
If one they alike were to repair;
Indeed all art actually
An [art-keeper/machine-keeper/mechanic] requires.

[Jonathan]

Good work! I didn't remember the summer reference, that does make it sound like there is an internal source of thermal energy, more so than from plain friction. But of course, it couldn't have been from combustion, people would notice the noise and exhaust. One wonders then, first where the thermal energy would come from, and how gravity had anything to do with it. Maybe a thermodynamic device lifted weights which ran the wheel, but that does seem redundant and purposefully misleading.

[Stewart]

Hi Jonathan

I was actually thinking this info cast doubts on heat (or temperature differences) being a main source of power for the wheel. I think excessive cold (frost) would have some noticable affect on such a machine. However, maybe there is more to this passage....

It begins: "Here the answer lies behind:"

and ends: "If there the hard frost creeps in, it is Summer here, the weather shines."

I suppose this could be suggesting a temperature difference in parts of the machine? Now I'm well confused!

However, I think this chapter (XLVII = 47) of AP could be important codewise as I have spotted something strange while doing these translations. I'll post more soon....

All the best
Stewart

[ovyyus]

Maybe a thermodynamic device lifted weights which ran the wheel, but that does seem redundant and purposefully misleading.

... unless a specific motion of the weights themselves was integral to the hypothetical thermal process.

[Jonathan]

If the source of thermal energy is conventional, then cold is good for the machine, up until the source is noticably affected. But if the source is free somehow, then you just pile on some more of that magic coal!

[rlortie]

group,

As a new member I am still attempting to catch up by reading past threads.

I could not help but notice the reference to the Bible and quotes of ST. Matthew. This is where you will find in chapter 7:7 "Seek and ye shall find".

Necessity, being the mother of inventions and also why we seek.

Edison invented the light bulb as we were running out of whale oil to light our lamps. Tesla invented electrical transmission to light edisons light bulb ETC.

I believe and have faith that before we run out of oil we will seek and find an new source of energy just as we have in the past. Could you imagine all the cars in the world being horses pulling wagons that are lubricated with animal fat. Think about it the next time you tour the used car lots.

Ralph