The concrete arguments that Bessler was a fraud

[eccentrically1]

I highly doubt that the untranslated text were written in such a manner to suggest he had other working machines with different principles , i suspect he meant he had a lot of different machine designs based on different principles but he had only one type he wanted to sell (the working type).
And when it is sold it would not be included in the treatise (obviously he would not have the right and it would not be fair to include it).

including those driven by weights, balls, springs, internal gears, internal water, oil, alcohol, and wind." - PM 124

He says the other machines are driven by other means, operating on distinct principles. It couldn't be any clearer.
And he admits the treatise does contain his working machine he (almost) sold hidden amongst the drawings if you have the knowledge to find it.

So I guess it is whatever is causing the overbalance.

Maybe. Why would he only intend to sell one specific type, and then crow about his other machines? That doesn't make sense either. Unless they were super-weak compared to the demonstration machines.

[johannesbender]

I highly doubt that the untranslated text were written in such a manner to suggest he had other working machines with different principles , i suspect he meant he had a lot of different machine designs based on different principles but he had only one type he wanted to sell (the working type).
And when it is sold it would not be included in the treatise (obviously he would not have the right and it would not be fair to include it).

including those driven by weights, balls, springs, internal gears, internal water, oil, alcohol, and wind." - PM 124

He says the other machines are driven by other means, operating on distinct principles. It couldn't be any clearer.
And he admits the treatise does contain his working machine he (almost) sold hidden amongst the drawings if you have the knowledge to find it.

So I guess it is whatever is causing the overbalance.

Maybe. Why would he only intend to sell one specific type, and then crow about his other machines? That doesn't make sense either. Unless they were super-weak compared to the demonstration machines.

I doubt that , show me the untranslated text , so we can look at it.

[daxwc]

Those were from Rocky's notes that I imagine came from JC.

Petrus van Musschenbroek (1687-1748) worked closely with Professor
'sGravesande, devising experimental instruments, and many of the original
designs have stood the test of time. Schumacher's jubilation at securing
Wolff's agreement to enter the Czar's service was premature. After he
arrived back in St. Petersburg, his superior, Blumentrost, received a letter
123
from Wolff which indicated that nothing was finalised. The letter which was
dated the 24th April 1723 said,

That is the letter. Have fun translating.

[johannesbender]

For example of what i suppose the text meant about the other machines that were drven by water and gears and alcohol etc etc , that he wrote to tzar : you can drive a wheel with clockwork and springs too but its not working perpetual wheels as he stated he had one which is a runner and pm though .

and all of them in mt are failures so why would he write that they are workable when he comments they arent , and yes i agree he said he removed it from mt but not that he said he had many workable machines(runners).

Edits: mobile device texting

[daxwc]

It does remind me of other boasts in AP though:

I found the way to make 100 odd machines. Only after all those did I find the Mobile I had thirsted after. I, more than anyone, know what's been involved, and what patience is required.

I have many other machines of various types - some, for instance, with weights, others without.

[johannesbender]

Indeed , many different machines and instruments ,even glockenspiel and i would bet even a spit roast and clocks too , and wheel designs , each based on principles of varies types , however a difference for a supposedly pm machine would be to reset on its own .

[Tarsier79]

..Or an Orffyrean Ship. A mill house.

I wonder if he was going to put his machine in any or all of them?

driven by weights, balls, springs, internal gears, internal water, oil, alcohol, and wind.

I always took this to mean using his PM principle to drivve different things.

[johannesbender]

True , i also thought something similar at a time , but what principle would apply for all of them to be perpetual , he speaks specificly about weights for his wheel.

We know weights that drop has to be lifted , what would the other things have to do ?

I guess in the end its all energy though.

[eccentrically1]

What happened to his 100 odd machines? He must not have kept any of them.

It wouldn’t be hard to have a machine driven by wind. He must have meant something else.

[Tarsier79]

I guess "wind power" could be a pressure powered engine, like a steam, stirling or turbine engine.

This could also refer to Besslers PM principle being a chemical reaction of some sort, many chemical reactions release gas that could be used for power.

[eccentrically1]

Rusting iron is an exothermic reaction.

[daxwc]

JC's AP: The internal structure of the wheel is designed in such a way
that weights (page 20) applied in accordance with the laws of
Perpetual Motion, work, once a small impressed force has
caused the commencement of movement, to perpetuate the
said movement and cause the rotation to continue indefinitely –
that is, as long as the device retains its structural integrity –
without the necessity of external assistance for its continuation –
such as the mechanisms which are to be found in other
‘automatics’ – e.g. clockwork, springs or weights that require
rewinding. For this concept, my ‘principle of excess weight’, is
NOT just an external appendage, an ‘added-on device’ which is
there in order to cause, through application of its weight, the
continuation of the motion (the revolution) so long as the cords
or chains, from which it depends, permit. NO, these weights are
191
themselves the PM device, the ‘essential constituent parts’
which must of necessity continue to exercise their motive force
(derived from the PM principle) indefinitely – so long as they
keep away from the centre of gravity. To this end they are
enclosed (page 21) in a structure or framework, and coordinated in such a way that not only are they prevented from
attaining their desired equilibrium or ‘point of rest’, but they must
for ever seek it, thereby developing an impressive velocity which
is proportional to their mass and to the dimensions of their
housing. This velocity is sufficient for the moving and raising of
loads applied to the axis of rotation.

Cords or chains? One or the other?

[daxwc]

Wagner: XI.

Whoever understands mechanics and closely examines the wheel will be readily able to divine the motive principle and consequently the entire internal structure of the wheel from the rapid and constant motion just as one could easily hear the motive principle of the Draschwitz wheel by holding one's ear to the axle. In order that the sleight of hand would be revealed no further, he provided the wheel currently standing in Merseburg with a clatter and a rattle to make it difficult to hear clearly the actual motive principle. He took a further precaution by setting up a railing around the wheel so that no one might touch this mechanical monstrosity with unwashed hands.

By moving from a cord to a chain for more life probably would cause it to clatter more.

[daxwc]

Yes, but if we could pinpoint exactly how he is getting his fourfold number.

AP: but they must
for ever seek it, thereby developing an impressive velocity which
is proportional to their mass and to the dimensions of their
housing.

Velocity and Lifting Loads: Bessler asserts that the velocity of these weights is proportional to their mass and the dimensions of their housing. This velocity is claimed to be sufficient for moving and raising loads applied to the axis of rotation.

Me: We were looking for what he four folded. This might be the biggest clue is that it is velocity.

ChatGPT
You're right; Bessler's claim about the fourfold increase in power or work could indeed be related to the velocity of the weights inside his wheel. If he somehow managed to increase the velocity of these weights by a factor of four compared to what would be expected in a conventional mechanical system, it could explain his assertion of multiplying the power or work output. However, the details of how he achieved this increase in velocity remain a subject of mystery and debate, as his design and principles have not been conclusively demonstrated or explained in modern times.

[johannesbender]

My chief suspect for fraud was a self winding type of clockwork , but carl stated it was not clockwork , but power would be extremely low , and i am not sure how the self winding would even happen on a vertical plane only.

I wonder what exactly the motive force derived from the pm principle the weight must exercise could be.

Edit : by fraud i mean if it was that they lied by saying its not clockwork or bessler and carl assumed you cant call it clockwork.