Zeroing in on Bessler's wheel

[Sam Peppiatt]

Tarsier79, Was your comment met for me? "This will still give you the same problem as this." If so I don't know what you mean------------------------Sam

[Tarsier79]

No Sam. It is in reference to the video quoted at the top of the post about 360 degree spring balancing of an arm in any position.

[johannesbender]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUw34IeZnIM

Brilliant engineering.

This will still give you the same problem as this:mt555v.jpg

Correct.

[Sam Peppiatt]

FWEIW,
I think Tarsier79 is right. MT-143 is part of the solution; a version of Roberval's Balance. He presented it, in 1669 so Bessler must have known about it. The weighted arm has to be translating. I.E., it would be more or less horizontal and would point out on the down side and in on the up side, as the wheel turns, to keep it constantly OOB.

I've tried this before but it didn't work. However, I referenced it to the axel, and hence to ground. What if it were referenced to a big pendulum, instead of the axel, to keep it translating and, always shifting as the wheel rotates? What I'm suggesting is; that a balanced device, (of some sort), is required to keep the wheel constantly out of balance--------------------------Sam



I claim to be half assed right half the time.

[agor95]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUw34IeZnIM

This is a good example of the principle shown.

From our few I wonder if the spring could be made so it can transition from
extended pull to compression push. Also with an auxiliary mass placed on the spring component.

This would create a more complex interaction between the component parts.

Regards

[Sam Peppiatt]

Agor95,
Yes, some thing like that, but more like the picture of MT-143-----------------------------Sam

[Sam Peppiatt]

Again, FWEIW;
I would like to defend Bessler's wheel, if I may. The last wheel was more of a demonstration model, just like John Collins said. It was slow and had reduced torque for the scientist to play with. I doubt if they had much experience with running a hoist. If it had been, fast and had a lot of power, they would have run that little box of bricks up through the fucking head frame. Also the performance was reduced to insure reliability for the long duration test. It was slow and had less torque so that it would be easy, or easier to stop. One other point. It's my contention that the 8 sliding weights, that were thumping on the rim of the wheel, was a form of a dynamic brake, to keep the wheel stopped. It would be a lot better than a friction brake on the axel, that could ketch fire, after numerous starts and stops as with hoisting---------------------------------------Sam

[agor95]

Agor95,
Yes, some thing like that, but more like the picture of MT-143-----------------------------Sam

There are a lot of unanswered questions to MT-143.

The way it moves and it's dynamic interactions. To use this as a target too modify another physical device. Then one has to build and define it more than it is at this time.

Note. If I were to compare another device to the presented youtube device.
Then it would be the Dominant Flywheel. The first is more defined
than the later. Due to the mathematical modelling.

All the Best

[Sam Peppiatt]

agor95,
Yes, the big question is; would it work? I see it, as a Roberval level, connected to a large pendulum, instead of the axel. All you have to do, to reverse it, is to flip the weighted arm over, then the wheel would turn the other way-------------------------Sam

[agor95]

agor95,
Yes, the big question is; would it work? I see it, as a Roberval level, connected to a large pendulum, instead of the axel. All you have to do, to reverse it, is to flip the weighted arm over, then the wheel would turn the other way-------------------------Sam

Well for MT-143 the question is; how does it work? I think a demonstration needs to be created by someone who sees the principle present.

Regards

[Tarsier79]

MT143 is a demonstration of balance. It transfers uneven forces to the "ground"

[Sam Peppiatt]

Yes Tarsier79,
There is very little if any thing to demonstrate, as far as movement. The way I think it will work is; those forces are transferred to a pendulum, (that is translating), with the wheel, instead of to the ground. To say it with different words, the "level" will always be balanced, as the wheel rotates, but the wheel it's self, will be continuously OOB---------------------------------------Sam

[Sam Peppiatt]

Correction. I don't know where I got the word level, I should have said, device or mechanism-------------------Sam

[Sam Peppiatt]

The pendulum shown in MT-123 becomes a weighted lever, like the one shown on the top of the figure in MT-143. (John Collins suggested I should use the term, "weighted lever"). Perhaps it will help. The weighted lever is connected to a big pendulum, by roller chain and sprockets, as shown in MT-13 but, offset from the center of the wheel, by a couple of inches, which holds it, the lever, horizontally.

It, the lever, becomes what is known as a 2nd class lever. It's effort point, the weight, is constantly changing position as the wheel rotates, because the big pendulum is translating. The fulcrum for it is the axel of the wheel. The weighted lever drives the wheel continuously, and since the effort point is always changing position, it never becomes bottom heavy, like it would normally------------------------Sam

[Sam Peppiatt]

Is it safe to say, no one has figured it out yet? I'll try to simplify it. The heavy pendulum near the center of the wheel, (a floating ground if you will), holds the weighted lever / arm horizontally. As long as the arm remains horizontal the wheel is continuously out of balance.

It is just as Bessler stated; there's really not much to it------------------------Sam