In for a penny, in for a pound.

[johannesbender]

I honestly do not know the details , but lifting the mass to reset , to re-gain GPE is what nobody has ever gotten past .

Can RH do it ? I simply do not know what is up his sleeve .

[Robinhood46]

I honestly do not know the details , but lifting the mass to reset , to re-gain GPE is what nobody has ever gotten past .

Can RH do it ? I simply do not know what is up his sleeve .

There is just an arm in both of them, nothing else.
What i find interesting here, is that the weight that is responsible for the rotation of the wheel, and the arm that rotates around the same axis, doesn't need to be raised to reset. The problem isn't a loss of height, because it gets to the same height as from where it started. It just needs to find it's way to it's initial position, with regard the arm that it is on, irrespective of how far the wheel has evolved.
I think maybe we need to look at it as trebuchet (as Agor pointed out), that throws a small weight up, and it turns the wheel "a bit" as it comes down, as apposed to looking at it as weights going around on a wheel.
Trebuchets take it in turns, to throw small weights over the top of the axle. It is only because the trebuchets are rotating around the same axle, that we see a wheel with weights going around, but there isn't a wheel with weights. Maybe this is why Bessler said, is it really a wheel?

[agor95]

Hi Robinhood46

I have been thinking on two potential possibilities. But first I dropped my educational baggage out side.

Starting with the main mass at the top 1 unit length away from the main pivot. And the small mass at 4 units from the main pivot.
You know where I am going with this as main mass is 4 units larger than the small mass.

The pendulum rod places the mass 1 unit from it's pivot and that is 3 units from he main pivot.

So at 12 o'clock it's balanced and as you have shown not for long.

I have a What if question?

What if the pendulum rod is replaced with a guild 2 units long pivoted in the middle?
This guilds the small mass up from one unit below to one unit above.
The guild is controlled to be vertical as the main mass drops from the top to the bottom.

The other option is using a flail like motion of the small mass to result in a balanced arm later on.

Regards

[Robinhood46]

What if the pendulum rod is replaced with a guild 2 units long pivoted in the middle?
This guilds the small mass up from one unit below to one unit above.
The guild is controlled to be vertical as the main mass drops from the top to the bottom.

I'm not too sure what you mean here, can you make a quick sketch, or two?

"The other option is using a flail like motion of the small mass to result in a balanced arm later on."

This is the sort of thing i was thinking of.
It's as though it is a flail in reverse.

Another one of my thoughts, is that there are two weights at the end of the long arm, and the counter weight is adjusted accordingly. We still have the same trebuchet effect, because of the switching of domination, due to the swinging in of one of the weights after 6.00. It may be easier to get the weights swapping places, to take up the desired positions, as apposed to trying to establish the reset with the one and only weight in the simulation and real world demonstration.

[johannesbender]

I honestly do not know the details , but lifting the mass to reset , to re-gain GPE is what nobody has ever gotten past .

Can RH do it ? I simply do not know what is up his sleeve .

There is just an arm in both of them, nothing else.
What i find interesting here, is that the weight that is responsible for the rotation of the wheel, and the arm that rotates around the same axis, doesn't need to be raised to reset. The problem isn't a loss of height, because it gets to the same height as from where it started. It just needs to find it's way to it's initial position, with regard the arm that it is on, irrespective of how far the wheel has evolved.
I think maybe we need to look at it as trebuchet (as Agor pointed out), that throws a small weight up, and it turns the wheel "a bit" as it comes down, as apposed to looking at it as weights going around on a wheel.
Trebuchets take it in turns, to throw small weights over the top of the axle. It is only because the trebuchets are rotating around the same axle, that we see a wheel with weights going around, but there isn't a wheel with weights. Maybe this is why Bessler said, is it really a wheel?

The short arm with weight that falls down towards 6 and then stays in that downwards orientation until the long lever arm has returned in the video , is what i wrote about that has to be re-lifted like you lifted it in the beginning.

[Robinhood46]

I did understand that you are referring to that part of the mechanism, and it most certainly does need resetting.
The point i was making is that it doesn't need to be lifted, to do the resetting. In the simulation i stop the simulation and lift the weight to reset it, but as the weight travels down past the starting point, it only needs to be shifted laterally.
I think where i may be getting overexcited, is that the only reason it comes down this far, is because it's weight is having the effect of making the heavy counterweight lighter. Whenever i try to manipulate the light weight, it has the effect of considerably reducing the arc that everything travels.
As always, the question arises, can i increase the chances of achieving the alternating imbalance, by decreasing the amount of the imbalance. In other words, am i being too greedy?

[agor95]

Hi Robinhood46

It's best not to be greedy at first. That is why I dropped the wheel and considered the full out stretched trebuchet as balanced.

For myself studying 'regex' statements, Geometric Algebra and this topic at the same time is not a good idea.

Anyway education informs us all the rotational energy gain should be lost to gain reset.
Another is as the centre of mass drops rotation increases and then the reveres is also true.

Regards

[johannesbender]

I did understand that you are referring to that part of the mechanism, and it most certainly does need resetting.
The point i was making is that it doesn't need to be lifted, to do the resetting. In the simulation i stop the simulation and lift the weight to reset it, but as the weight travels down past the starting point, it only needs to be shifted laterally.
I think where i may be getting overexcited, is that the only reason it comes down this far, is because it's weight is having the effect of making the heavy counterweight lighter. Whenever i try to manipulate the light weight, it has the effect of considerably reducing the arc that everything travels.
As always, the question arises, can i increase the chances of achieving the alternating imbalance, by decreasing the amount of the imbalance. In other words, am i being too greedy?

I'm uncertain about the lateral shifting you mentioned , at the end of the build wheel video when the long arm approaches a horizontal position , It seems the short arm's weights need to be raised again imo , essentially swinging or rotating it from a hanging position until the weight aligns with the long arm to reset, essentially a lifting process.

You might be approaching a tipping point between leverage/torque force, friction, drag, and inertial resistance. Adjusting the weight or other factors could lead to either too much or too little force in this delicate balance ?

I recall Bessler mentioning something about not even a single grain of sand could be affected (out of context) , and unfortunately this sort of highlights the challenging energy loss situations in general in achieving a full reset for almost every failure thus far .

[Fletcher]

Maybe this jb ?

JC's AP ..

"design has, in fact, progressed to the point where there is nothing supercritical about the exact disposition of the weights - an ounce more or less, here or there, makes not a scrap of difference to the Wheel, which will hold its course serenely without 'turning a hair'" – AP pg 316

[Sam Peppiatt]

Robinhood46,
I'm getting an idea for resetting. Like so: Right now the short arm pivots on a shaft. Instead, have it fixed to a shaft that would extend though the back of the big wood swinging arm. Then fixed to the new shaft, a short arm on the end of it at about 90 degrees, like a bell crank.

The idea is; this arm would catch a pin on the wheel and flip it up as it swings by to reset the arm. It might not work but, would be some thing to try-------Sam

Seams like, when it strikes the pin it would help to turn the wheel.

[agor95]

That is a good idea "Sam Peppiatt"

[Sam Peppiatt]

Not sure if it would work; all this monkey motion makes it hard to visualize--------------Sam

[johannesbender]

Maybe this jb ?

JC's AP ..

"design has, in fact, progressed to the point where there is nothing supercritical about the exact disposition of the weights - an ounce more or less, here or there, makes not a scrap of difference to the Wheel, which will hold its course serenely without 'turning a hair'" – AP pg 316

Honestly i may be confused , i remember something about not affecting a grain of sand or dust but i am not sure from where anymore , maby it was not Bessler 🤔

[thx4]

There are 3 positive points that have not been exploited.
1)The module makes more than one turn.
2)The wheel is launched and continues its course.
3) so use energy feedback +. (le retour arriere? en français)


We can alThere's a bit of energy available for a possible reset.
Let's get cracking...

[Robinhood46]

Robinhood46,
I'm getting an idea for resetting. Like so: Right now the short arm pivots on a shaft. Instead, have it fixed to a shaft that would extend though the back of the big wood swinging arm. Then fixed to the new shaft, a short arm on the end of it at about 90 degrees, like a bell crank.

The idea is; this arm would catch a pin on the wheel and flip it up as it swings by to reset the arm. It might not work but, would be some thing to try-------Sam

Seams like, when it strikes the pin it would help to turn the wheel.

I have tried numerous methods to get the wheel and the small weight to interact to achieve the reset, they have all failed. This doesn't mean that an answer can't be found here, just that i haven't found one. I was only working in the sim world. THX4 is going to have a go in the real world, maybe he will be more successful than i was.
I think the problem is, as i said in an earlier post, whenever you try to change the trajectory of the small weight, you lose the effect it is having on the main crossbar. The heavy weight becomes more dominant, which slows the rotation down rapidly, and the movement that looks so promising no longer exists.
Maybe an MT13 type heavy mass could hold the main crossbar horizontally, this would eliminate it's effect on the small weight's position while the small weight is being reset? Once the small weight has reset, it would lift the heavy weight off it, as it does when i start it manually (me being the imaginary stop). The complication then becomes it's interaction with the wheel.
I didn't have enough electricity yesterday so i was busy doing other stuff. Today i should be alright, if the weather forecast is vaguely similar to reality.
I'm trying at present the MT24 type additional arm, with the 90° angle you mentioned, resetting the small weight.
One thing that i do think that is promising with this trebuchet method, is that we can add as many mechanisms as we like, because the small weight only creates a small imbalance between the two ends that, alternates from one end to the other. The moving of the heavy counter weight compensates for any additional weight, and keeps the difference between the alternating dominance.