Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

[Robinhood46]

We've been thrashing out the sensible ideas for a few centuries, and we still haven't found the answer. So the daft ones are probably the way to go, if you want a different outcome than the bloody thing doesn't go round.

I think the crack in the support of Bessler's wheel, opening with every rotation, and the whole building vibrating like mad (paraphrasing, as usual) for the Buzzsaw, are telling us something. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the crack in the support wasn't opening once with every rotation but more like opening once with every 355°, for example, or 370°, the difference not being significant enough to be noticed.

The COG, or COM for those who prefer, doesn't need to shift nearer and further from the axle to cause PM, it can also achieve it be shifting radially and spending more, or less time, being affected positively or negatively by gravity. This might be achievable by your suggestion of the crossbar taking the weight, momentarily. But like i said, i don't fully understand your thoughts.

[Roxaway59]

Another way of putting the idea is this.

In tests that I have done the weight that balances the outer wheel does not balance the centre wheel.

The centre wheel still turns. So if the outer wheel is balanced the centre wheel has no problem turning it like a flywheel but its a flywheel that keeps constantly supplying the drive wheel with weights.

Graham

[Roxaway59]

I will have another think about it tomorrow Robinhood but I would just like to add another thought to this.

For decades now I have believed that Besslers wheel contained 8 weights and then as I was messing around with the Buzzsaw I realised that if the outer wheel was driving the axle then for every revolution 8 weights would be heard falling on the right hand side and there are 12 weights on the Buzzsaw.

Scary thought isn't it because it never occurred to me before.

Graham

[Roxaway59]

I think what gets me about that is it doesn't seem daft anymore that something that is fairly simple could be missed for over 300 years because in reality we don't even know how many weights it had let alone how the wheel carried them.

I do still feel optimistic though that it will be rediscovered.

Graham

[Roxaway59]

As a follow up to what I posted yesterday about the Buzzsaw idea I have made this simulation showing the difference between a balanced and unbalanced outer wheel.

The balancing beam is represented by the two extra weights on the left hand wheels.

The simulation has been cleaned up to make things easier to see.

Graham

[Robinhood46]

Graham, i don't think you should waste too much of your time trying to get me to understand what it is you are talking about.
My point was that the outer wheel didn't appear to be balanced in the drawing, because the weights weren't distributed evenly. Balancing the outer wheel with weights works fine, right up until you start putting weights on it, that are not evenly distributed. So i don't know what it is you are trying to show me.
Your thinking obviously makes sense to you, but as with many of us when we try to share our thoughts, myself included, it doesn't make a great deal of sense to the readers.
The best thing to do is to progress with your work, eventually i will have a light bulb moment when i finally understand what it is you are talking about. Sorry to not be of a greater help.

[Roxaway59]

Its ok Robinhood I'm going to do another simulation in Algodoo which should make it clear. Not just to you but to me also.

The thing is I cant afford to waste money on a real experiment if its not likely to work. If things look promising and no one tells me its a stupid idea I will do the real experiment.

Graham

[mickegg]

Hello Roxaway59

Hmmm...the driving outer wheel needs as much OUT of balance as it can get, so as to make it a driver! <grin>
If, on the other hand, you can provide an effective counterbalance to the inner wheel you will have a runner.

The problem I'm having providing the balancing element, is that it must reset itself each time a weight moves.
I myself, continue to spend a great deal of time on this problem.

But very pleased and interested to see there is still thought being given to the Buzzsaw idea.

Regards

Mick

[Roxaway59]

Hi mickegg, in the double Buzzsaw version I was thinking of the inner wheel would be the driver and if the outer wheel would be balanced then it would be acting like a flywheel just supplying the inner wheel with weights.

I know that you gave a lot of useful posts on that topic and you are not a layman like myself when it comes to these matters. I would certainly value your input.

Most of the pictures you provided are no longer there unfortunately. Would you be able to share some more information on this all these years later?

Graham

[Roxaway59]

Hi Robinhood, when I made the latest simulation it seemed to raise more questions than answers.

What is needed is some kind of dynamic balancing system on the outer wheel that always applies its weight in the same spot as the wheel turns. If something like that was possible I don't see why this idea wouldn't work.

Here is one idea that was posted at the time by KAS that looked promising but others said it wouldn't work.

Graham

[Roxaway59]

Generally I was just thinking today about the nature of this special principal of Besslers.

Over the nine months that I have been on the forum there have been numerous discussions about energy and how it always adds up in the end and how every force has the equal and opposite reaction.

Things moved on a bit and the idea that there must be a work around for the law of the levers was posted about a great deal.

Through all these discussions there is one thing that stands out about it for me.

Its this - https://drive.google.com/uc?export=view ... Ywo5x0p5Le

This is basically all about time. The idea that everything can add up from the point of view of energy but one weight can end up being where another one isn’t in a certain time.

The reason this happens is to do with how gravity operates. The straight slope path and the straight down path are like extremes but the curved path is the natural one.

Could it be that Besslers secret is that simple. That he just recognised how important that was and set about making a mechanism that did the same thing where one weight would end up being somewhere before another one and so could impart its weight on the wheel at that specific moment in time.

Could it really be that simple that this is all about time? Something that we do know is related to gravity.

Its just a thought.

Graham

[SHADOW]

Bonjour Graham,
Les dents du systeme présenté sont à l'envers d'un bon fonctionnement!
Le poids sur le dessus à 3h bloque ou freine l'ensemble.
L'idée peut être exploitée pour la roue extérieure amenant le contre couple à 0 mais je crains qu'il y ai beaucoup de dissipations dues au frottement. La roue motrice reste la roue intérieure pour moi!

Good morning, Graham
The teeth of the system presented are backwards for proper operation!
The weight on top at 3h blocks or brakes the whole.
The idea can be exploited for the outer wheel bringing the counter torque to 0 but I fear that there are many dissipations due to friction. The driving wheel remains the inner wheel for me!

[Roxaway59]

Hi shadow, I agree with you that having the inner wheel as the driver is the way to go. This does mean that a way needs to be found to dynamically balance the outer wheel in order for it to work. The example that I showed from KAS as a way to dynamically balance the outer wheel out is one that I think is quite clever although in that form probably unworkable.

Graham

[Roxaway59]

I haven’t posted for a while but I have started to write some posts that for one reason or another I never finished so I am determined to finish this one and once again its just to convey some things that have been on my mind.

Just recently I ended up going back in time on the forum and reading some of what I think are some of the more interesting posts and some of these are by people that don’t seem to be posting currently.

Some of these people I think could only be described as outstanding in my opinion when it comes to the efforts they put in posting ideas and showing real builds and the exact way they presented their ideas.

Can I say first of all to anyone past and present that I really appreciate the people who share their ideas and in particular those who do real builds and simulations to show how much merit some ideas have. I know that a lot of other people feel the same way and I have read a lot of posts by people complimenting people on their tireless efforts.

There are some things that strike me about the efforts that I have seen so far past and present and I wanted to share a few thoughts on those.

I remember posting a while ago about working on the right idea. I think most of us can appreciate that most ideas that people play with are in fact the wrong ones. Human beings are not robots with mechanical thinking. We have imaginations that a machine could only wish for but on the other hand machines have logic and human beings can be very illogical.

After a lot of reasoning about various ideas we can settle on an idea and then go for it hook line and sinker. Some times we can work on that same idea for years slowly modifying it but never fully understanding why the basic idea is too flawed to be the right approach.

There are some ideas though that MUST touch on what Bessler did and I for one would be amazed if that turned out to be not the case. I don’t believe that a relatively simple idea could have been entirely missed. What must be happening is that from time to time we are rubbing shoulders with the correct idea but not fully realising its potential.

One favourite idea is that pendulums were put on a wheel. So people have been playing with this idea for over three hundred years and probably beyond.

To be completely honest if it turned out that Besslers wheel had no type of pendulum action on it once again I would be amazed. There was obviously some kind of swinging motion on it and nothing swings better than a pendulum.

You cant however just put a couple of pendulums on a wheel and expect it to work. The two aren’t really compatible. An ordinary pendulum has a certain frequency and as the frequency of the wheel is not fixed the resulting interaction is chaotic. Spoiler alert – there was no chaos on Bessler wheel only something that was beautifully coordinated and harmonious. So does this mean that there was no pendulum type action on Besslers wheel? No, it doesn’t mean that it just means that somehow he tamed the interaction between pendulum and wheel.

There was some kind of swinging action on Besslers wheel because he said there was but how much and where did the knocking noise come into it? These questions need answers but because Besslers wheel behaved like a clock we are left with the inescapable reality that there was a very strong timing element to his wheel so draw your own conclusions as to which horse is the front runner.

I do have some thoughts on this and one is that the pendulum action automatically adjusted its timing to suit the speed of the wheel. Another is that the knocking sound was necessary to keep the timing correct. These are just a couple of notions and I would be interested in other peoples thoughts on this matter.

Graham

[Roxaway59]

I've been experimenting with an idea that I think may be the answer to what we have all been looking for.

All the experimenting so far has only been done in Algodoo so I would like to do some experimenting in WM2D and then move on to a real experiment.

Its based on the idea that Bessler found a work around for the law of the levers. There really does appear to be a way to make 4 pounds rise using only 1 pound.

If going back in time on this forum has taught one thing though its to be very cautious about introducing idea's that seem novel. So I am taking it slowly and I will try more experiments to see if my theory is correct.

If it is then the idea will work on the wheel idea that I first introduced on this topic.

Graham