Can the movement mentioned by Bessler be this ?

[ken_behrendt]

Wheeler...

I do not think that Bessler's MT13 could be made to work with latches. The problem is that the net gravitational energy lost by the weights whose lever extensions are not in contact with the top of the axle mounted pendulum exactly equals the gravitational energy that must be put into the weight being raised at the 12:00 position of the wheel. Latches are not going to change this situation. I think in the notes that Bessler provided for this design, he mentions that it could be made to work IF one could put a man at the top of the wheel to continuously raise that weight up there! I think in the past I referred to this hypothetical assistant as "Bessler's Demon" which reminded me of the demon that Maxwell hypothesized in an effort to violate the Second Law of Thermodynamics.


Paul...

I'm sorry to hear that you are having problems with your latch design. Although I have not posted the results yet in my "...Updates" thread down in the Community Buzz forum, I just completed a dynamic test wherein I, finally, got some sustained rotation of a design. The test was not a complete success, but, for a while, I definitely got a "taste of honey" and the design managed to continuously keep its CG on one side of the axle. I consider this proof positive that such a thing IS possible and will produce continuous rotation. Hopefully, I'll be able to post the complete details there later today.

The secret of Bessler's wheels was that he managed to keep the CG of the their weights on one side of the axle at all times without creating the counter torque that prevented all other designs which can also do that from working. This absence of counter torque can, I am now firmly convinced, only be achieved if the weight shifting mechanisms are independent of and mechanically isolated from each other. Under no circumstances must they depend upon contact with the wheel's axle or any part attached to it in order to shift. This, of course, would preclude MT13 from working.



ken

[jim_mich]

Either Bessler was a fraud or he was a PM genius.

Reading John Collin's books very strongly suggests that Bessler was not a fraud. The tests and the eye witness descriptions seem to indicate that Bessler's wheel was capable of continually turning and doing work until it should wear out. Many have suggested that Bessler used a clock mechanism. Calculations show that its not posible to store enough mechanical energy inside his wheel to make it run as long as it did while doing the work of pumping water and running a hammer mill.

If its not possible to make a wind up wheel that runs eight weeks then it seems very likely that Bessler found some as yet unknown method of gaining energy from gravity. Also Bessler offered his head if his wheel was a fraud.

It seems that one always finds what one is looking for in the last place that one looks. If we haven't yet found what were looking for then maybe we haven't yet looked at all possibilities?

[AgingYoung]

If we haven't yet found what were looking for then maybe we haven't yet looked at all possibilities?

Another possibility is that some have discounted possibilities that are actually viable. Bessler did say he found it where others had looked yet failed to find it.

Gene

[AgingYoung]

I'd like to elaborate on that above point. I've mentioned several times the idea of trading vertical drop for horizontal travel is viable. Some people have discounted that idea. In a wheel that turns the weights have to move. It's inconceivable for a wheel to turn if the weights don't move. It's possible the weights could move singularly and in turn but I don't hold out much hope for that idea. It makes more sense that weights move in pairs or at least in pairs.

Given that a pair of weights move it's not too likely that they are both moving in the same direction. Although it is possible I don't think that's the case particularly in a turning wheel. Their direction is going to be changing instantly as the wheel turns. It's highly likely that there is an exchange between horizontal and vertical in the movement of that pair (or more) of weights.

I have several specific ideas how to accomplish that exchange. I don't plan on sharing the specifics but I think its of value to not discount an idea because every way you've tried it or seen it tried didn't work.

Gene

[ME]

So, what's your point in saying this?

[AgingYoung]

Glad you asked me.

(1)I'd like to elaborate on that above point. I've mentioned several times (2)the idea of trading vertical drop for horizontal travel is viable. Some people have discounted that idea. In a wheel that turns the weights have to move. It's inconceivable for a wheel to turn if the weights don't move. It's possible the weights could move singularly and in turn but I don't hold out much hope for that idea. It makes more sense that weights move in pairs or at least in pairs.

Given that a pair of weights move it's not too likely that they are both moving in the same direction. Although it is possible I don't think that's the case particularly in a turning wheel. Their direction is going to be changing instantly as the wheel turns. It's highly likely that there is an exchange between horizontal and vertical in the movement of that pair (or more) of weights.

I have several specific ideas how to accomplish that exchange. I don't plan on sharing the specifics but (3)I think it's of value to not discount an idea because every way you've tried it or seen it tried didn't work.

There were three.

Gene

[ME]

Ok, it's clear now.

This is a special clue: In the Name of the Three, all existing things are interconnected inside out and outside in.