Did Bessler use strings and cords?

[Paul]

Interesting question. My vote is 90 to 100%.
I think that the use of the cords and pulleys in his wheel is very probable with the purpose of to have a force available in a distant point. His sentence: "Poltergeists wander freely through locked doors" (from AP) could mean a cord which passes through sections of the wheel.

Paul

[ken_behrendt]

As of this post, 30% of the votes are for a 90% to 100% probability of Bessler having used ropes. But, about 26% say less than 10% probability. I guess one's position depends upon how he interprets the Bessler literature / illustrations and one's previous mechanical experiences with ropes and pulleys.

While reading this thread I experienced a deja vu feeling (all over again). It seems that, as in quantum mechanics that deals with the internal structures of atoms and molecules, because we do not know the exact internal arrangement of Bessler's wheels, we are reduced to talking about them in probabilistic terms. Thus, we are nearly 100% sure that he did build genuine working gravity wheels, in past posts I've claimed that I "felt" like I had 90% of the Bessler mystery solved, and we are sure that 0% of other "mobilists" have managed to achieve OU/PM since Bessler's time.

I yearn for the day when we can boldly proclaim that we are 100% sure, in general, how his wheels worked...


ken

[jim_mich]

Sometime people have a tendency to think that modern technology is vastly superior to past technology. Sometimes this is true while many times its not true. The art of rope, cord and thread making is ancient. I grew up on a farm. We used ropes for many things. We even made our own ropes. This was before plastic ropes became available. Each bag of cow feed came tied with a string. These strings were (I believe) made from hemp. They were just cheap brown non-woven fiber about a foot long. We collected them and us kids would braid them into ropes. Over the years we made maybe half a dozen. I used one as the pull rope for a home made cart. We used that cart for hauling many things and for coasting downhill. Even though it was out in the weather all the time and subjected to much stress and tension the ropes lasted a couple years. I'm sure that craftsmen from 300 years ago were able to make much better ropes than I made.

I feel that wear, tear and stretching would be minimal. Why was the eight week test stopped after just two weeks? I believe Bessler was concerned about wear and stretching of ropes or cords. New strings and cords have an initial stretching process, after which they pretty much maintain their length. I feel Bessler was concerned during this first two week break-in period. After checking he was satisfied that the test would proceed OK.




edited spelling errors

[Paul]

Yes JIM ... or Bessler simple use this stop period to recharge the "trick system" :-) lol

[graham]

From Ken:

I guess one's position depends upon how he interprets the Bessler literature / illustrations and one's previous mechanical experiences with ropes and pulleys.

Bessler does say that if one were to grope inside one of his wheels and feel the axle that one would find it pierced with many holes ( From John Collins Apologia).

If JB is being factual and there were holes then it's possible that the holes were to allow ropes to pass through the exact center or his wheels . Weights working in tandem perhaps.

Bessler did a super job of leaving the door open to many intrepretations of his descriptive writings.

I voted 50% to play it safe.

Graham

[Madmax]

I vote 90 to 100%
It is matching to all my designs, past and present.


max

[Michael]

I do not think any cords or pulleys were used, I believe his remark about cords and pulleys were the ones lifting the box of bricks.

Hmmm, I don't Ralph. The reason I don't is because the the sentence regarding the pully's comes right after he mentions he could make a wheel work with just one cross section, but that it ran very slow. With more and a few pully's he could throw Wagners calculations right out the window. Wagner of course stated Bessler was a fraud.

Okay instead of comparing apples to oranges, or debating what is easier to repair or refit a cord or another type of mechanism, do you see how, or what do you see when you read the statement that the wheel was so well designed it could be repaired as it worked? I once wrote that parts could be pulled off and temporary or replacement parts put on so it could work while the other parts were being repaired, but this is just an idea of mine, Bessler doesn't actually say this. What are your thoughts?

[jim_mich]

what do you see when you read the statement that the wheel was so well designed it could be repaired as it worked

Maybe the translation is muddy? I really don't see how one could work on or repair a wheel as it rotates. That concept is totally ridiculous. Obviously something got screwed up in the translation. I don't want to put words into Bessler's mouth, but I think it's more likely he was saying something like "The wheel can be repaired/serviced quickly and easily in the location where it is running."

Note: After I read my sentence again, it seems to suggest that maybe the wheel is turning while its being serviced, which was not my meaning when I wrote it, but illustrates how words are sometime imprecise.

I think Bessler may have used interchangeable parts rather than custom fitted parts. It's obvious that he was trying to promote his wheel as being reliable and easy to maintain and repair.

[rlortie]

Michael,

I am sticking to my original concept for now. He could make a wheel run with one cross section, I am betting that means levered paired weights.

By adding more paired levers and pulleys it could throw Wagners calculations out the window.

Now my question to you is: What was Wagners calculations base upon, were they based on the internal workings of the wheel or the amount of weight that could be lifted through the referred window. Once again I am betting those calculations were referring on the amount of work being done. wagner would have a heck of a time making any tangible calculations about Bessler's wheel without knowing it's method of mechanical transference.

For repairing while in operation: If it would work with just one lever, then removing one, when the total count was alleged to be eight. would obviously be easier than threading a pulley and attaching the cord in a moving wheel 10 feet tall.

I also believe there were 16 to 24 weights on eight levers with a connection that made it sound like eight when shifting.

Also I question; How does one make a bi-directional wheel with ropes and pulleys? would they not go slack when reversed.

I believe that I have solved the Bi-directional mechanics, and it uses the same weights and levers functioning in the same manner either direction.

Edit: If wagner considered Bessler a fraud then what else could his calculations imply, other than lifting force. That is to say why would a learned man holler fraud and then bother to calculate the machines workings.

Ralph

[Michael]

I'm assuming Wagners calculations were a proof showing that any type of perpetual motion is impossible based on simple calculations of forces. I'm assuming that when Bessler said Wagner is right, but so am I, he was rebutting this proof. I don't see why Wagner's calculations would be only about the load the machine could lift because it's redundant it answers nothing and proves nothing. That is you might be able to get a rough idea of the power output by the weight lifted but it won't tell you how the machine works.

I also question the paired idea. As someone else mentioned quite a while ago Bessler said they come in two and two... they-could mean anything. Some people feel Bessler stated that his machine didn't have to run on weights. It seems logical to think that the they are weights, but it could mean mechanism. Bessler did say that the wheel ran on many pieces of lead.
Here's something to ponder, they come in two and two, but like Noahs Arc there are many.

[rlortie]

Michael,

I find your reply confusing with your original question. Assume that Wagners calculations were to prove pm impossible without knowing the physical operation is like calculating that an airplane cannot fly if you do not know airfoil application.

you have answered your own question by saying [That is you might be able to get a rough idea of the power output by the weight lifted but it won't tell you how the machine works.]

[Some people feel Bessler stated that his machine didn't have to run on weights. It seems logical to think that the they are weights, but it could mean mechanism. Bessler did say that the wheel ran on many pieces of lead.]

I find this possible, the machine would turn without weights as the levers supplied enough imbalance to rotate the wheel. I have achieved 10 full turns with one lever and no weights in either direction of rotation. A mechanism IMO is a lever with two weights attached to it. The many pieces is as I already stated could be 16 to 24 pieces of lead in the shape of a cylinder. they come in two and two as two levers are interconnected. Four weights move in synchronized movement, but not all in the same direction!

Ralph

[Michael]

Ralph it's the same thing as what any modern day physicist or mathematician would attempt to do, show a proof based on knowledge of how reality behaves. What it's capable of. It's just another mathematical proof validating the conservation of "whatever", though it wasn't called by that term back then. A paper discussing just the load the machine lifted is pointless.

Levers are weights. I think the idea was water, or just springs. Fletcher has a better memory of this than I do.

[Joel Wright]

ralph I have achieved 10 full turns with one lever and no weights in either direction of rotation.

Are you using a +-180 degree, gravity operated rotatable ring pin stop to achive the bi-direction rotation Ralph?Or do you manualy repostion the pin stops?Or does your lever use pin stops at all.Can you share any more about the design.10 full turns is from TDC free fall isn't it?

[rlortie]

Joel,

No ring stops, no stops on wheel (I do not believe in them). the pin stops are located at the ends of the lever to keep it from flying off the wheel. If I were to add a rim then no stops would be required. Adjusting the spacing on these stops equally on the ends conrols amount of stroke or slide.

Levers ride on flanged bearings mounted to the wheel Total of four for sets of two one on each side of lever to retain it, Imagine a railroad car axle setting on the track. only here the wheel turns but stays stationary and the track moves back and forth with another set of wheels on top to retain it.

Yes I achieved ten full turns after releasing, but not at TDC, Lever was horizontal upon release or closer from 9:15 to 3:15 just as the lever shifted by gravity.

NO MANUAL manipulation required. It flows on its own. The action reminds me of a highschool baton twirler.

This is where you want to pay heed to MT 137 and forget the traditional clock layout.

Ralph

[Joel Wright]

ralph: The action reminds me of a highschool baton twirler.

This sounds like the mechanism allows the lever to alternate the lever action between center line of rotation and end to end movement is captured in a balanced state between the adjustable stops?Am I close?