You, Me, and Nanny Mcphee

[digitaljez]

There are those who actually still believe the superstitious nonsense that certain plants, with no discernable thought processes....actually 'designed' themselves.....

Apart from the fact that you appear to have totally misunderstood evolutionary theory or are deliberately twisting the underlying concept ...

What sort of a compassionate, loving divinity would have designed the life cycle of the wasp that fertilizes fig trees ?
These creatures are hatched inside a fig where they immediately become the host of a nematode. They spend several months maturing and becoming fertilized where upon they have a few hours to force their way out of the fig and find another fig. They are in a race against time. They have to lay their eggs in the new fig before the nematodes hatch inside them ripping their bodies apart as they do so.
The only sensible explanation is that of species adapting to their environment. This is surely senseless genetic survival not the work of a wise, caring designer.

Don't tell me its the work of the devil, please. Why is it that a monotheistic religion has to invent a second naughty deity to try and make sense of its own inconsistencies ? In doing so it creates another inconsistency of which it appears oblivious. You claim there is only one God, yet you create Satan who's influence is equally, if not more, far reaching. How is this personification of the elements of reality that you find distasteful less of a god than that other piece of 'superstitious nonsense' you call God.

Even in those days, the connection between promiscuous sexual behavior and genetic corruptions in children was generally understood.

Even in this day that statement is a lot of twaddle. You would have us believe that genetic material is influenced by the morality of its bearers. Does a sperm upon fertilizing an ovary check for a marriage certificate, and if one is not in evidence, proceed to corrupt the the genetic information ?

I read a great example of such a perverse dichotomy as man's self defeatist 'atheism' coupled with the gift of creativity, in Popular Science recently. A story about a man who invented a computer that, itself, invents things. He went on about Darwin and the 'genetic evolution' employed in 'his creation'......all the while completely oblivious to the necessity of His having dreamt it up in his head, procuring the parts, assembling the device, intense bouts of 'troubleshooting'.....writing the code to make it work successfully.....etc. All absolutely necessary in order for him to be standing there extolling the 'miracles' of evolution! Absolutely both amazing and disgusting at the same time.

You wrote the above as if it were the illustration of something significant and meaningful but I fail to see what your point is. How is it amazing and disgusting ? A guy designs a system based on evolutionary principles that invents things. The nature of reality demands that he has to build it, as there are no magical beings to make it suddenly appear.
Surely this just illustrates that a system based on the principles of 'blind' evolution can and does 'invent' things and they do not just magically appear. One more point to Darwin.

[Techstuf]

Even in this day that statement is a lot of twaddle. You would have us believe that genetic material is influenced by the morality of its bearers. Does a sperm upon fertilizing an ovary check for a marriage certificate, and if one is not in evidence, proceed to corrupt the the genetic information ?

In many instances, the results of one's morality, or perhaps more accurately, one's immorality... absolutely influences genetic material. This is well documented.....even if not fully appreciated. Anyone who has actually studied these things knows that the more sexual partners one takes, the greater the likelihood of sexually transmitted disease, a simple proven fact. Various STDs can effect the developement of unborn children. This was observationally understood thousands of years ago....though the actual dynamics, of course remained unknown to nearly the whole of mankind for quite some time.


Your juvenile question about marriage certificates....though somewhat cute, reveals the extent of your frustration with your particular situation.

A guy designs a system based on evolutionary principles that invents things. The nature of reality demands that he has to build it, as there are no magical beings to make it suddenly appear. (emphasis mine)

The same dichotomy evidenced yet again. You highlight my point well.


I wouldn't presume to call God simply a 'guy', but yes, He has designed quite a system! I say that your theory requires a much larger dose of 'magic' to have been accomplished in the way you believe it has, than to simply recognize the awesome hand of God at every turn in physical reality. The alternative, faithfully practiced by all too many in our day....is to attribute such brilliant engineering feats to the most truly stupefying collaborative effort of single celled organisms that one could possibly imagine...let alone, cobble into theory and then arrogantly foist as fact.


Speaking of facts.....they truly speak for themselves, with no need for you or I to explain them. A simple child can process a great many of them....

To you and your class, they say that single celled organisms are the most tenacious, and advanced architects in the universe. To myself and those of my class, they bespeak a Grand Benefactor, to whom none else would dare compare his or herself, though many have tried. They whisper and shout His praises and admonish us to bow in honor of the One true God of miracles.


Certainly, putting the cart before the horse must produce satisfaction, or so many would not continually make a practice of it......though any perceived gains are short term and come with commensurate risks. Better to put to one's knees before God and reflect.


So in closing, it would appear that the ever cunning Venus Flytrap has struck again......


Those clever, calculating plants take root wherever they may.


It's always amazing what can be accomplished when enough single celled organisms put their heads together......I wonder how long they carefully studied their common enemy before they hatched their brilliant engineering scheme! Why continually sit and wait for fertilizer to drop your way, when you can attract those creatures for whom it is a delicacy!


To He for whom mankind surely must appear at times, as insects, He has allowed to be devised a truly eclipsing brand of 'Venus Flytrap'.....it's purpose greatly more relevant, and sobering.


Sorry, but to those among mankind who still appreciate our Grand Designer.....evolution, egotistical and dogmatic religion, and draconian social engineering efforts just don't......


'Fly'.



And DJ, it is also obvious to those who know better, that you 'assume' too much. Of course, that is to be forgiven.



At any rate.....God bless,



TS



P.S. I saw a bumper sticker the other day, it read: "Evolution - When scientists made monkeys of themselves".

Perhaps they ought to have replaced the word monkeys with the word 'gods'. For that, (insert poignant and tragic irony here) is what so many of them truly wish to be.


Again....God bless,


TS

[Michael]

Techstuf I am guessing that by this quote,

A more appropriate warning would be...."Seller Beware". I would be happy to send you one for free, Ken. The gift of eternal life is free as well.....

That you fully endorse the bible is that correct?

[Techstuf]

Michael, you do yourself a disservice if you would guess by quotes of mine.

2 Timothy 3:16-17


TS

[digitaljez]

Various STDs can effect the developement of unborn children

So you are backtracking and changing your statement from genetic corruption to disease.

...reveals the extent of your frustration with your particular situation

What strange twisted logic allows you to draw that conclusion ? What evidence have you that my situation frustrates me in any way ? How does my rhetorical question do anything else other than illustrate how ludicrous your original statement was ?

The same dichotomy evidenced yet again. You highlight my point well.

The only dichotomy in evidence around here is your monotheistic belief system that has conjured up two deities to explain the inconsistencies in your view of reality. I note you did not bother to enlighten this poor sinner as to how that works. How am I ever going to be redeemed if the explanation of your beliefs is inconsistent with the good sense that, I assume, your God has supposedly given me ?

I wouldn't presume to call God simply a 'guy', but yes, He has designed quite a system!

So now you do accept evolution but want to claim it for your God. How does that gel with your creationist fairy tale ?

It's always amazing what can be accomplished when enough single celled organisms put their heads together......

You really should try and understand the theory of evolution instead of making assumptions that lead to silly statements like that.

However I guess anyone who allows his world view to be formed from the writings on bumper stickers really needs the crutch that religion provides. I wish you well with it.

[Techstuf]

DJ, Nanny Mcphee would be proud.


Once again, the fact that some venereal diseases trigger birth defects and genetic mutation in unborn children is well documented.....your juvenile employment of semantics cannot change this reality.


But then, as one who elevates supposedly random genetic mutation to our universe's ultimate art form, I can see the root of your frustration.

However I guess anyone who allows his world view to be formed from the writings on bumper stickers really needs the crutch that religion provides. I wish you well with it.

Once again, you assume to much. However, that is to be forgiven. God bless you.


May you come to see higher reason, if it be His will.



God bless,



TS


P.S. Thank you for wishing me well with my 'crutch'. My crutch has a name, it is Yahshua, Jesus Christ. As you seem intent on enduring God's judgements....In kind, I wish you well with yours.


God bless,


TS

[Michael]

Michael, you do yourself a disservice if you would guess by quotes of mine.

2 Timothy 3:16-17


TS

Riddle me this batman.

Would you prefer the old version or the Jim Carry one for your new avatar?

[ken_behrendt]

digitaljez...

Most religions, whether primitive or "organized", always seem to develop a model of the universe based on two opposing forces or personalities. One is the "good" one to which adherents to the particular religion are prompted to try to emulate and move closer to. The other is the "bad" one which adherents are cautioned to avoid at all costs.

It's really just the old "carrot or stick" approach to policing a particular social order. If the adherents will follow the "teachings" of the religious leaders then they will gain the favor of the "good" force(s) of the universe and be rewarded. The fact that the reward does not seem to be forthcoming is dismissed by saying that it will be gained in some sort of afterlife and that the "good" and loyal follower must be patient.

Meanwhile, all of the apparently bad things in life that are happening to those "outside" the particular religion are rationalized as the result of the outsiders not believing and practicing the particular religion of the religious leaders. Whenever something bad happens to an "insider" to the religion, it will be rationalized as due to their "back sliding" or allowing themselves to be seduced by the "bad" forces of the universe. Their only hope is to re-commit themselves to the particular religion, perhaps perform acts of self-denial or self-punishment and pray that they will be allowed back into the good graces of the "good" forces of the universe again.

Well, this kind of involvment with religion does appeal to some people. Usually, it is those searching for some sort of absolutes in a universe that is in a constant state of change. Will anybody ever find what they are looking for in religion? Perhaps some will. For others, regular attendance at religious services can become little more than a social habit and the espousal of beliefs that they secretly have some doubts about.

Most religions love to talk about how many new people are joining their ranks, but tend to ignore all of the people that are leaving their ranks. And those newcomers are often former members of other relgions or denominations that eventually found disappoint with them. Considering the Roman Catholic Church, the number of young people entering seminaries to be trained for the priesthood has been continuously dwindling over the last several decades. I suspect that much the same pattern prevails in other religions' schools for clerical training. Most Christian churches in Western countries are becoming emptier and emptier by the year.

I think this is a trend that will continue until a form of religion is developed that will begin to address the real needs of people in the here and now. Many are tired of waiting for Second Comings that never arrive and being told how, one day, they will "go" to a better existence somewhere "out there". People want solutions that work for their everyday physical , emotional, moral, and ethical problems. Unfortunately, science, while it has made life better for more people on Earth than ever before, is still not able to meet that deep seated need within people for "more".

I'm confident that, someday, perhaps even in this century, humanity will have a global, flexible new vision of mankind's place and purpose in the cosmos. When it arrives, a new sense of freedom and meaning will embrace the peoples of the world and then a Golden Age can begin on Earth in reality. It won't require any messiahs, apocalyptic doom's day scenarios, bizarre metaphysical salvation schemes, or adherence to rigid dogma or rituals. It will combine the best of all of Earth's current religions' moral and ethical teachings and, most importantly, will be able to evolve over time to meet the changing needs of humanity.




As far as the topic of evolution is concerned, I am of the opinion that, for the most part, the last several hundred years of geological and paleontological evidence seem to support it. However, one must keep in mind that the theory is far from perfect because we still do not know all of the details about how life can emerge and develop from non-life on a young planet.

Most likely, life wants to naturally spread out across the face of a planet and occupy every nook and cranny of it. In the process, it will encounter variations in the environment that will cause stress on it. Part of that stress will come from interaction with other life forms that are trying to do the same thing. Random mutations in the genetic material that controll all aspects of a life form's bodily structure will, on very rare occasion, produce a change in an organism that allows it to reduce the environmental stress acting on it. That organism will then be better able to multiply and pass along its unique genetic improvement to its offspring. Over the course of billions of years, a planet capable of sustaining life will, eventually, be covered with a wide diversity of organisms. Some will go on to develop intelligence and dominate the planet. As time goes on, some the dominant creatures on the planet will go on to develop such advanced intellectual constructions as philosophy, mathematics, technology, science, etc.

But, my question has always been "What is the next step in this process?". The theologians answer with various visions of mankinds future. And, so does science. Right now, however, I see a global transformation in humanity on the horizon, a world government, and, eventually, contact with similar intelligences throughout our galaxy...



ken

[Wheeler]

You must admit that Michael did come up with the best come back of the month with this one.

Riddle me this batman.

Would you prefer the old version or the Jim Carry one for your new avatar?

He not only carefully picked his words, but also put his ace of spades down with the image.

Even if you guys are serious, about thinking you have the right answers to what life is, it always good to settle down and have a glass of beer and know your are just part of the whole thing.

[Techstuf]

Michael, I would prefer the Jim Carrey avatar should you prove able to effect the change.


TS

[Techstuf]

Many are tired of waiting for Second Comings that never arrive.

It's only prudent for God to test those prospective replacements for the fallen ones, that they may be found able to endure with patience and without constant attention....or, conversely, stubborn in their immaturity such that they show themselves much like little children who throw themselves into a tantrum when their needs are outstripped by their wants.


Ken, as often as you have expressed your belief that the return of the King is a myth..... it disappoints me that you cite no reference for the basis of your belief that the second coming of Yashua, Jesus Christ, is long overdue. Certainly I understand if you first wish to do more research on the matter.


For He just informed me that He will be here neither a moment too soon, nor a moment late.


In any case, please do not be offended by my request that God see fit to render you a blessing, that you might pause to reflect on what yet remains inscribed on your heart....


TS

[ken_behrendt]

Actually, while I think Jim Carrey portrayel of the Riddler was excellent, I find I prefer the cooler, more intellectual performance of the late Frank Gorshen. He was truly one of the most talented mimics and impersonators to have come along in the 20th century...

But, of course, the riddle forming abilities of the Riddler pale into insignificance compared to those of Johann Bessler!


ken

[Techstuf]

I don't know....I find your command of uncertainty principles nearly as puzzling as anything they have produced, Ken.


Peace,



TS

[primemignonite]

* * * * *
Even if you guys are serious, about thinking you have the right answers to what life is, it always good to settle down and have a glass of beer and know your are just part of the whole thing.

(underscoring for emphasis, mine.)

This wise suggestion coming from yourself, Wheeler, is not at all surprising to me. The implication - that with knowing that one is a part of it, the physical feeling of G-R-A-T-I-T-U-D-E as a natural and essential component - can there be rightly assumed, correct?

This all-pervasive "feeling" being present (rare), or absent (usual), is absolutely KEY to determining the reality in any particular individual case, I believe. Yes, a sure tell-tale.

And your favored brand of brew might be what, Wheeler?

James

[rlortie]

It's always amazing what can be accomplished when enough single celled organisms put their heads together......

Never underestimate the Power of stupid people when gathered in groups!