Water Power

[Wheeler]

Jon
In respect for what you did to help someone, I want to say that that photo shows you were successful in many ways.
If I had a connection, I would ask you if you would consider having it as the front page of time magazine.

Thanks for helping humankind.
a medal for heroic achievement is in order.

[Jon J Hutton]

Thanks Wheeler,

The picture shows finally an end to what these families have had to go through with out water. Although I think your words are a bit much, I will have to say the work ( and I mean hard work) has been very rewarding. Their water supply before was a dirty stream 1/2 mile away.

I have a question:

I am working on a pump idea that I need help with. If a piston weighed 1600 pounds and was 3 feet in circumference and was pushing down on water supply in a cylinder also 3 feet in circumference by 10 feet deep. At the bottom of the cylinder (water supply) was a 2" water outlet (pipe) how high (elevation) would the piston pump the water each stroke.

[jim_mich]

A 3 ft circumference pistion would be about 11.459 inch diameter and have a cross section area of about 103.13 square inches.
A 1600 pound piston pushing on 103.132 square inches will produce about 15.51 psi.
A 10 foot deep (or high) column of water will produce 4.33 psi as the bottom.
So when the pistion is at the top the water pressure will be 15.51 + 4.33 = 19.84 psi.
And when the pistion reaches the bottom the water pressure will be 15.51 psi
A pressure of 15.51 psi will support a column of water about 429.85 inches high or about 35.82 feet high.
A pressure of 19.84 psi will support a column of water about 549.85 inches high or about 48.82 feet high.
At the top of of the column there will be no flow because there will no longer be any pressure.
If you need a higher pressure then increase the piston weight or decrease the piston diameter.

To determine the flow rate requires knowledge of how high the water needs to be pumped and how long the pipe is and how many elbows the pipe has and the general condition of the inside of the pipe and the size of the pipe. (Smooth plastic pipes flow better than rough cast iron pipe.) Each elbow slows the flow. Also if the flow is intermittent then there will be a short lag while the water starts to move through a very long pipe. Machinery's Handbook tells how to make rough calculations for the flow of water through pipes.

[rlortie]

I procrastinated an earlier response here in anticipation of Jim coming up with the answers. He has done a good job of doing so.

My question from this point is: how do your intend to recover a 1600 pound piston, plus a 10 foot head of water? IMO you will need more force than obtained to displace the piston and reload it!

I would consider throwing the piston away, sealing the top of the tank and use compressed air obtained from filling the tank, A simple centrifugal pump can easily reach 40 PSI of air which is much more than your 1600 pound piston delivers.

Ralph

[mickegg]

Would it not be better to decide on the height to which the water needs to be lifted and then to calculate the pressure required?

Edit: Pressure = Ht. in feet x 0.433 lbs/sq. in.

The volume of water able to flow could then be calculated from the energy available.


Mick

[Wheeler]

Jon
You may already know about this little handy book, but if you do not have it, it is worth the work to order it.

It's a valuable pocket-sized reference book by Thomas J. Glover

Has topics ranging from water volume,pressure, friction etc.and everything to calculate how much flow you need to make your generator turn at the rate you wish.

Here is where you can order it.
http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fus ... s/cid/2848

[jim_mich]

Jon, have you looked into a "hydraulic ram pump" which uses the force of water flowing in a pipe to pump water to a much higher point?

http://www.theramcompany.com/opreq.html
http://www.clemson.edu/irrig/Equip/ram.htm

Another idea is something I once saw in a movie involving an Amish family. They had a paddle wheel in a stream near the bottom of a hill. The wheel had an eccentric connection that pulled a rope each time the wheel rotated. The rope was strung up the hill suspended on the tops of posts. It pulled the piston rod on the well pump outside the back door of the farm house.

A simple swinging pendulum (like Mikovics) at the well would make the pumping more efficient. This is because each time the well water starts moving up the pipe extra energy is needed to get it moving. Then that energy is lost as the water stops moving while the pump rod moves back down. Using a pendulum smooths out the energy flow. The water still starts and stops but the swinging pendulum balances the start and stop of the water against the start and stop of the pendulum so less energy gets wasted.

[docfeelsgood]

I dont know if anyone here is familiar with them but they used to make a hydro water ram that used a contaminated source of water to run the ram while pumping just the good water to your buildings and in the process would not cross contaminate itself . quite ingenius those ole timers . this wouldn't waste the good water to power it . "double acting" i think they were called . natcherly it was more expensive to hook up due to the xtra "good" water line runnin to it .

[Jon J Hutton]

Hey guys,

Thank you for all your comments it will take me a while to look into all your suggestions. Thanks for being a part of this water project that I am working on in Balcones de Palin Guatemala. By the way you can see the school compound that many teams and I built from google earth at 14 22 53 94" North and 90 43 35 06" west.

Just a simple question...I obviously slept through the class in school. If I understand what you are saying Jim the dia of the pipe at the bottom of the tank ( in the example I used a 2" Pipe) does not matter the height will be the same even if I use a 3/4" pipe.

The whole reason for asking the question is because I am trying to get water to these people as cheap as possible. I have a 75kw generator (perkins diesel) that uses almost a half gallon of diesel to fill a 645 water tank that translates into about .013 centavos per gallon (rate of exchange here is 7.5 to 1). The elevation is killing me, that I have to pump the water up to. If I could fill a tank at ground level I would almost cut the diesel consumption in half.

There is great math on this thread that I will use over and over again....Thanks

Jon

[rlortie]

Jon,

For efficiency of gallons of diesel per gallons of water pumped I suggest you take a look at "jet pumps".

What I am thinking is that you could connect one to the opposite end of your Perkins generator unit and boost your head for tank filling while making electricity to run the submersible at the bottom of your well.

a Jet pump can also suck water higher than any other type pump including a positive displacement vacuum pump.

Here is a link to a list of "Jet Pump" articles that explain how they work.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=n ... stallation

Ralph

[Jon J Hutton]

Thanks Ralph and all others.

I have been busy here with the Guatemalan red tape. They want to charge taxes ( 30% taxes here guys for businesses) on the water being pumped which would make the price out of the ball park for the poor people it is intended for. My accountant says there is a way around it though. he he he he!!


I maybe should start a new thread but, has anyone done anything with diesel from restaurant grease (bio-diesel), it looks like a good investment. I found a good web site on it......what do you think?

www.survivalunlimited.com/biodiesel.htm


JJH

[Fletcher]

Blended with coconut oil (also a Bio-deisel) would be interesting in your area.

[Jon J Hutton]

Does anyone have any idea if you can use hydrogen or oxy-hydrogen as a fuel for mantel type lanterns. I was thinking of a solar cell powering a battery bank to make the hydrogen or oxy-hydrogen via electrolysis.

Just curious,

JJH

[Jon J Hutton]

Thought I would post this here. Although it looks great it has at its core a problem that I can not find any information on why it does not work.

Here is the premise.

Lets say you have a 4" 15 foot long pipe. Clear (this would be difficult to find) for this conversations sake. You place it vertically in a pond or very deep swimming pool and cap one end. Then you hoist it out of the water except for about 1" of it so it does not break suction and all the water gushes out. How much does the tube weigh. Common sense says you do the radius sq * pi * lenght above water..... and you have the answer. Now lets insert a bellow, hollow tube, or balloon, or a rope of 3" balls into the tube, but do not let the bellow, hollow tube or balls touch the top....make it the entire length it does not matter. Now how much does the suspended tube above the water weigh? The same as if it were completely filled with water.

If it only weighed slightly less we would have perpetual motion, but I have no idea why it weighs the same.......any bright minds here care to illuminate me on this one.


Jon H.

[murilo]

Jon,
sorry!
My good will isn't enough to win my English bad understanding. 8(
Maybe a sketch would help...
Best!
M