What size was Bessler's first wheel?

[rounder]

i have a quote from ? and was wondering if anyone knows if this is one of besslers quotes or someones opinion. here it goes

• QUOTE - The levers loaded with heavy weights as viewed from the side, may be compared to side views of many children playing with very heavy clubs among tall broken columns. The strongest of the children cannot lift the lightest of the clubs. Still, each child can swing (or you might call it "step" as it uses a club as a "leg") from the top of one broken column to the top of the next broken column by positioning his heavy club on the ground between the two close columns and holding on to the handle end to swing over to the top of the next column. Then he rotates the handle end of his club to maneuver it between his current column and his next intended column so that he can again "step" or swing a small angle over to the top of the next intended broken column. If the clubs are even heavier by being double-ended, then instead of rolling them to the next position, they may be alternatively transported between the columns by switching ends. A double club may be moved in seesaw fashion by leaning it against the current broken column that the child is on and rolling it over the top of the column (assuming that there is enough room for the child to stay on top of the column). The double club is pivoted with a circular motion with one end going up while the other end goes down. ? Bessler (Ramananda, "Dialogues at the Castle of Weissenstein")
  • -also i wish to ask what is wrong with MT 2 since some spheres are farther out than others, is there to much friction of the movement of the spheres that stop movement ?

[jim_mich]

http://orffyre.tripod.com/id41.html (The above is from near the middle of the page)

There are two modes of historical composition, the artistic and the scientific. In representing story of Orffyreus and his perpetual motion machines, Ramananda has followed a mixed pattern.

Copyright © 2005 Dr. Ramesh Menaria all rights reserved.


It's called artistic license.

[pstroud]

Pg 354
Further, I make my machines in such a way that, big or small, I can make the resulting power small or big as I choose. I can get the power to a perfectly calculated degree, multiplied up even as much as fourfold. If I can arrange to have just one cross-bar in the machine, it revolves very slowly. Just as if it can hardly turn itself at all, but on the contrary, when I arrange several bars, pulleys, and weights, the machine can revolve much faster, and throw Wagner’s calculations clean out of the window!

Ralph,

Thank for posting one of my favorite key clues. I just wanted to add that I think there may be an upper and lower mechanism (or inner and outer mechanism) in the wheel. Bessler refers to a single cross bar making the machine revovle very slowly, In my opinion, I believe he is referring to a change in one of the inner or outer mechanisms. In the "other" mechanism, it could drive the wheel very slowly with an over-weight. Note that the "other" mechanism which is pretty neutural and drive the weight shifting of the first, which will be out of balance and drive the wheel. Yes, it gets a little complex and confusing.

That's all I can say here at this time since I have build the first mechamism and I am physically in the process of testing the second mechanisms options in the wheel now. Maybe I will have more to report later.

Preston.

[jim_mich]

From Apologia Poetica pg 355 Copyright John Collins

If I can arrange to have just one cross-bar in the machine, it revolves very slowly. Just as if it can hardly turn itself at all, on the contrary, when I arrange several bars, pulleys and weights, the machine can revolve much faster, and throw Wagner's calculations clean out of the window!

The relevant term here is "cross bar." What is the original meaning of this term? This has been discussed before.

Here by Patrick and John Collins.

Here by many members.

Here Jonathan posted his own rough translation and Stewart replies on the next page.

Here by Oystein.


If the wheels were built with spoke like cross-bars (light weight beams) running from one side of the wheel to the other, with each bar supporting one mechanism containing a single complete working unit of a pair of pairs of weights along with pulleys, cords, springs, etc. spread out along the length of the cross-bar, then adding more cross-bars with their associated components would of course increase the power of the wheel.

But I think the real point Bessler was trying to make was that he could control the power of the wheel contrary to Wagner's calculations. His wheels could be made very powerful or very weak and barely turn. What Bessler never says (and I think it important, but I have no proof) is that changing the "power to weight ratio" of his wheels would also affect the minimum startup operating speed. A wheel that starts at a very slow speed such that residual OOB is enough to get it started will not have much power. Such a wheel needs to be light-weight and contain few components else it has too much inertial momentum to overcome while starting. On the other hand a wheel that requires a small push start to a faster speed will develop more power and can have more cross-bars with their increased inertial startup momentum.

My reasoning behind this is that the wheel must have two phases of operation. The first is lifting weights OOB due to wheel rotation. The second phase is when the OOB turns the wheel due to gravity. If a wheel starts at a very slow speed then it will not be able to lift very much OOB nor overcome very much inertia. If the wheel is built to require more speed to start then it will lift much more weight and provides much more power.

[pstroud]

Hi Jim!

I have a lot of respect for your pair of pairs concept and the possibility of this controlling a single cross-bar barely driving a wheel.

HOWEVER, there is a lot of evidence in the connectivity and hints of an inner and outer mechanism that changes my interpretation. Many of the MT drawings with possitive hints related to a solution are leading towards two mechanism. One is inner and one is outer. One of them is a neutral flowing shifter and moves with the wheel, having no out of balance effect. This one is driving the other out of balance driver (special weight) in my opinion.

Now, with this concept, the neutral connected shifter could drive multiple weights for a fast wheel or a single cross-bar that is out of balance for a wheel that can barely rotate.

Just my opinion, which I am physically building in my shop and testing. I can't go into any more detail.

Good Luck to all!

p

[Stewart]

How small was Bessler's first wheel?

John's book and Bill's website both give an incorrect size for the first wheel at Gera. I've explained this many times on the forum, so I won't go into it again in detail here (click here for more details). Both GB and DT give the size as being:

2½ Leipzig ells or 5 Leipzig feet in diameter and about 4 Leipzig inches thick (modern measurements: about 4.6 feet or 1.4 metres in diameter and 3.7 inches or 9 centimetres thick)

Stewart

[Stewart]

I think he made comment that Newton was wrong about Kinetic Energy = MV i.e. it wasn't MV but mv^2 (which s'Graversande did thru impact in clay experiments [thanks Stewart, from a previous discussion] which later got changed to 1/2mv^2 with further refinement in modern times.

Oi Fletch! That information was classified! ;-)
But since you've brought it up...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willem_'s_Gravesande
"His chief contribution to physics involved an experiment in which brass balls were dropped with varying velocity onto a soft clay surface. His results were that a ball with twice the velocity of another would leave an indentation four times as deep, that three times the velocity yielded nine times the depth, and so on. He shared these results with Émilie du Châtelet, who subsequently corrected Newton's formula E = mv to E = mv2. (Note that though we now add a factor of 1/2 to this formula to make it work with coherent systems of units, the formula as expressed is correct if you choose units to fit it.)"

So Newton was wrong at least once, which is nice to know! lol

Ah-ha! Now another piece of the puzzle makes sense to me, for it is the V^2 part of s'Graversande's Kinetic Energy formula that is the source of the power of Bessler's wheel.

Yes, I also came to this conclusion some time ago as a possible answer to the problem, thanks to the Gravesande connection. It seems we have been covering a lot of the same ground with our research into KE, CF etc.

I've got more info to share on this subject but was waiting to get it all on my own website - I might try and put some information together here if I get the time. Gravesande was convinced Bessler's wheel was genuine, and went away and wrote an article about how he thought it could work and discussed the very equation in question. He was later humiliated by his peers over this publication - but I think he was very close to the answer. Bessler meanwhile was so upset after his encounter with Gravesande that he smashed his wheel. I think Bessler realised G had the equation and therefore the mathematical knowledge, even if he couldn't work out exactly how Bessler had applied it. This would probably have annoyed Bessler enough for him to smash his wheel. Fortunately for Bessler if G really was on the right track it seems he didn't pursue the matter any further, or at least did not manage to come up with a mechanical solution.

Stewart

[Tinhead]

Anyone got a copy of this article? Or has it already been discussed on this board and I just forgot it :)

Rainer

[ovyyus]

John's book and Bill's website both give an incorrect size for the first wheel at Gera.

Thanks Stewart, I'll correct the wheel size info on my website.

[wheelrite]

I wonder if Besslers statement about his first wheel with one 'bar' barely turning itself actually meant 'went round a few times and stopped'.....
And when discussing them with Mr. G he was just saying 'I can gang several up on one shaft and keep the small diameter, or affect the innards so it produces little power and a child could stop it'.
As for increasing the speed/power from startup, you just need another mech to 'come along' sooner, so yes, more 'bars' or more mechs per degree.
Is that what the 'logo' he drew means? 3 is the minimum numbers of 'bars' to do useful work? maybe his first small wheel was 'powerless' virtually and could run itself but not even manage a grindstone, not good for demo's.
Finally , Mr.G seems to have lifelong high credibility, he was obviously brighter than me and many others and detected no fraud, in the whole of europe you could not pick better characters to scrutinize(even if not directly like Newton) Bessler and his wheel.
Regards
Jon

[Stewart]

Anyone got a copy of this article? Or has it already been discussed on this board and I just forgot it :)

I don't think it has been discussed much on the board before. I think there is an excerpt from it in Dircks' "Perpetuum Mobile".

I've got a copy of the full document, but it's not a very good copy and so I've typed it up. I'll sort it out and do a post about it soon. The document has 20 pages, is in French and is titled:

"REMARQUES SUR LA POSSIBILITÉ DU MOUVEMENT PERPETUEL"

If anyone can find a link to some good quality scans of the document then please post it so that I can check that my transcription is 100% correct. Thanks.

Thanks Stewart, I'll correct the wheel size info on my website.

Thanks Bill.


Stewart